F1 2021
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Ax^
Silly Rabbit
max is a driver who always has his elbows out and has 100 precent commitment in his race craft.
like what Brundel has said repeatlty about senna over the years " he'd place his car in positions and let the other driver choose to have an accident or not"
cannot complain when that mentality is pushed back at you. plus think it was Lewis making a statement to max that he will no longer be backing down so easily
like what Brundel has said repeatlty about senna over the years " he'd place his car in positions and let the other driver choose to have an accident or not"
cannot complain when that mentality is pushed back at you. plus think it was Lewis making a statement to max that he will no longer be backing down so easily
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MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
Nothing much happened.…Finally get a weekend off for the F1 RaceFam and I fell asleep
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
Yes, that’s how they’re doing it. Makes FP2 a bit less useful tbh.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Fuck me they are whinging, yeah Lewis made a mistake but it was not a professional foul, Horner & Verstappen going on like it's going to change things, a bit desperate.
souljacker
innit
It's quite comical and could be the turning point in the season. Both of them are rattled and I'm sure Lewis and Toto are having a good old laugh as they sip their champagne and admire their trophy.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
We have the benefit of far more camera angles than ever before, and far more people are going to analyse this one to death for years to come, compared to the collisions of the Senna Prost era for example. I’m looking forward to Jolyon Palmer’s analysis which should show up on YouTube in a few days time, as he always seems to get to the heart of the matter.
Having seen the sequence of stills on the below Instagram post, it bugs me that Hamilton seems to move further from the apex the deeper they get into the corner. I may have to revise my initial view and give more of the blame to Lewis, but I can’t believe he’s done anything deliberately. Max has to turn into the corner to get around it, and I‘m not clear on whether he could have left more room without running off the track at the exit (which was of course an option).
But anyhow, like I said, this one will be picked over in such forensic detail that there might not in the end be much room for debate over who did what and why the contact happened, so it doesn’t need me to draw any conclusions at this stage.
souljacker
innit
From the in-car view I saw, it looked like Hamilton had a load of understeer. It clearly looked like he was turn into the corner but the car wasn't playing ball. Then he backed out but it was too late. Max, on the other hand, had a lot of space yet still felt the need to turn in. He also, IMO, dangerously squeezed Lewis against the wall at the previous straight.
I think both drivers were a little bit at fault and the penalty was probably fine. The incident really doesn't warrant the reaction from Max and the bellend Horner though. I can't see how they can call into question Lewis' professionalism when Horners spends his whole time playing pathetic transparent mind games every weekend.
I think both drivers were a little bit at fault and the penalty was probably fine. The incident really doesn't warrant the reaction from Max and the bellend Horner though. I can't see how they can call into question Lewis' professionalism when Horners spends his whole time playing pathetic transparent mind games every weekend.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
This is very true of course. We have to keep in mind the effect on Hamilton’s car of the air disturbance caused by Verstappen’s wake. I still see no reason to distrust Lewis’s intentions and I think Christian Horner should apologise for his accusations.
souljacker
innit
I do wonder if the excessive weaving we saw this weekend was mentioned during the drivers briefing. Alonso was doing it dangerously during the sprint. I'd like to think the FIA had mentioned to the drivers that excessive weaving was dangerous and would incur penalties. It was Max's only defense at the start of the race yesterday and it was pretty obviously going to cause something to happen.
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
Max had his elbows waving from lights-out. He did it once too often. Hammy didn't back off. There was a small, usually harmless contact, but Isaac Newton took over.
Part of the vituperation from Horner may be based on Albon repeatedly making the same mistake in both the 2019 and 2020 seasons trying to overtake Hammy on the outside of a bend. Horner saw Albon wasn't mature enough for the big time. Then he sees his wunderkind making the same rookie mistake.
Looking at the onboard footage, it's clear Max was looking right in his mirror edging the car right as Hammy is alongside. He straightens momentarily, then applies another clear right steer. Contact is made. Hammy drifted wide; Max steered in. Leclerc following thought it was a racing incident. Karun Chandhok on Sky slowed it down frame by frame and concluded it was no more than a racing incident.
If you want to overtake a car on a bend, you have to expect it to drift outwards. Call it 'understeer'; call it Newtons 1st Law of Motion. Either way, deliberately narrowing the gap to the inside car is unwise, as Albon (and many others) have discovered.
The only surprise was an unwarranted time penalty. It must have been galling for Red Bull to see Hammy take it on the chin, fall back to fourth, then reel in Leclerc lap by lap. Hence the dog-in-the-manger stunt of grabbing the fastest lap when it was no benefit to Red Bull. Hey, it's allowed; it's cool.
The name-calling by Max is childish. He'll grow out of it. The argument by Horner that Hammy deserved more sever censure because "my driver's in hospital" is another logical fallacy - this time an appeal to consequences. (Basically, "look what the outcome was rather than the infringement if any, and ignore any part Isaac Newton had to play in turning a small contact into a million pieces of carbon fibre and soiled underpants".) Horner ignores the fact that Max was taken to hospital by dint of the safety protocols as a precautionary measure, not for any actual injury. Sure, not pleasant for the guy, but Horner was trying to frame the argument as if Max was on life support.
The big learning point for Max (and Horner) is not to underestimate how good Hammy is, even in the second-best car. And having bullied his way through countless contacts this season alone, Max can't expect Hammy to back out every time.
And it was still the best 0.5 lap of racing this season.
Part of the vituperation from Horner may be based on Albon repeatedly making the same mistake in both the 2019 and 2020 seasons trying to overtake Hammy on the outside of a bend. Horner saw Albon wasn't mature enough for the big time. Then he sees his wunderkind making the same rookie mistake.
Looking at the onboard footage, it's clear Max was looking right in his mirror edging the car right as Hammy is alongside. He straightens momentarily, then applies another clear right steer. Contact is made. Hammy drifted wide; Max steered in. Leclerc following thought it was a racing incident. Karun Chandhok on Sky slowed it down frame by frame and concluded it was no more than a racing incident.
If you want to overtake a car on a bend, you have to expect it to drift outwards. Call it 'understeer'; call it Newtons 1st Law of Motion. Either way, deliberately narrowing the gap to the inside car is unwise, as Albon (and many others) have discovered.
The only surprise was an unwarranted time penalty. It must have been galling for Red Bull to see Hammy take it on the chin, fall back to fourth, then reel in Leclerc lap by lap. Hence the dog-in-the-manger stunt of grabbing the fastest lap when it was no benefit to Red Bull. Hey, it's allowed; it's cool.
The name-calling by Max is childish. He'll grow out of it. The argument by Horner that Hammy deserved more sever censure because "my driver's in hospital" is another logical fallacy - this time an appeal to consequences. (Basically, "look what the outcome was rather than the infringement if any, and ignore any part Isaac Newton had to play in turning a small contact into a million pieces of carbon fibre and soiled underpants".) Horner ignores the fact that Max was taken to hospital by dint of the safety protocols as a precautionary measure, not for any actual injury. Sure, not pleasant for the guy, but Horner was trying to frame the argument as if Max was on life support.
The big learning point for Max (and Horner) is not to underestimate how good Hammy is, even in the second-best car. And having bullied his way through countless contacts this season alone, Max can't expect Hammy to back out every time.
And it was still the best 0.5 lap of racing this season.
MrCurry
right after this urgent rest
I’ve been waiting for this one. Palmer has really found his calling as an analyst, and really goes deep with considering and comparing the clash with others at the same corner. His verdict - “a 50/50 racing incident, maybe you can say it’s slightly more Hamilton’s fault for missing that apex”.
A far cry from many of the knee jerk reactions from people on Sunday concluding Lewis had some kind of malicious intent.
edit, seems like embedding won’t work for this video, but the video is here
A far cry from many of the knee jerk reactions from people on Sunday concluding Lewis had some kind of malicious intent.
edit, seems like embedding won’t work for this video, but the video is here
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
Good analysis by Jolyon. I agree with his conclusion generally.
Both his and Karun's analysis show Max steering right, squeezing Ham to the inside. Max straightens momentarily. He sees Ham alongside. Then he steers right again. Max steers into Ham.
If Ham is at fault for missing the apex, he's guilty of an imperfection in driving excellence at high speed.
But Max arguably is equally at fault for ignoring the three or four car-widths available around the outside (a manoeuvre I think of as "the Albon" or "the Alonso"). He chose to take the riskier path when safety was readily available.
I don't entirely buy the argument that Hammy wasn't where he was supposed to be (closer to one of the possible apexes - or apices for Latin buffs). If I drive into the back of a parked car, I can't claim it wasn't supposed to be there on a double-yellow line. We're supposed to observe and react. I know F1 rules are slightly different to The Highway Code, at least with regard to speed limits, but Max knew there was a car on his inside and steered right. He drove into a car that declined to obligingly get out of his way and then said, "Look what you did to me!"
So I think Max was the architect of his own accident. The stewards were inconsistent in even awarding a penalty to Ham. It was at worst a racing incident on lap 1 that merited no further action. A ten-second penalty is a smack on the wrist, so the stewards obviously didn't see it as a hanging offence.
For comedy purposes (and possibly to see Horner's head explode live on air like a melon drilled by a .50 cal BMG), they could have given Max a penalty for causing a collision. I would have paid good money to see Mr Ginger Spice trying to summon up vocabulary violent enough to cope with that.
TL/DR - Horner is a git; Max is a clot.
Both his and Karun's analysis show Max steering right, squeezing Ham to the inside. Max straightens momentarily. He sees Ham alongside. Then he steers right again. Max steers into Ham.
If Ham is at fault for missing the apex, he's guilty of an imperfection in driving excellence at high speed.
But Max arguably is equally at fault for ignoring the three or four car-widths available around the outside (a manoeuvre I think of as "the Albon" or "the Alonso"). He chose to take the riskier path when safety was readily available.
I don't entirely buy the argument that Hammy wasn't where he was supposed to be (closer to one of the possible apexes - or apices for Latin buffs). If I drive into the back of a parked car, I can't claim it wasn't supposed to be there on a double-yellow line. We're supposed to observe and react. I know F1 rules are slightly different to The Highway Code, at least with regard to speed limits, but Max knew there was a car on his inside and steered right. He drove into a car that declined to obligingly get out of his way and then said, "Look what you did to me!"
So I think Max was the architect of his own accident. The stewards were inconsistent in even awarding a penalty to Ham. It was at worst a racing incident on lap 1 that merited no further action. A ten-second penalty is a smack on the wrist, so the stewards obviously didn't see it as a hanging offence.
For comedy purposes (and possibly to see Horner's head explode live on air like a melon drilled by a .50 cal BMG), they could have given Max a penalty for causing a collision. I would have paid good money to see Mr Ginger Spice trying to summon up vocabulary violent enough to cope with that.
TL/DR - Horner is a git; Max is a clot.
Limejuice
Well-Known Member
Good luck with that one.
I hope that's Helmut Marko being a fucking idiot again, not Horner or Max.
My bet is a judge would say that in a motorsport contest both drivers and teams consent to the possibility (or likelihood) of accident, injury and damage. It's sheer luck. Since the incident happened in normal (or at least common) racing circumstances, loss lies where it falls.
Hammy's pretty rich. He should offer to buy Red Bull Racing from Dietrich Mateschitz for the amount Red Bull's legal action asks for, then start speculating in public about who he'd hire as team principal and driver.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
I find the tracks way too narrow and the cars sound like milk floats, I just can't get into it.
dessiato
🇪🇸 españa te quiero
I really miss the sound and fury of the petrol era. One of my favourite times was being about 2 metres from an F1 Honda, in a Williams I think, when it was fired up. It was one of the best sound experiences I've ever had, that and the howl of a Vulcan. Although being at Waddington when three were scrambled takes some beating. I've just remembered a nine ship formation of Lightnings...
a_chap
When the world came apart, where were you?
The early Honda-engined Williams had a uniquely aggressive "bark" to them - very distinct and an amazing sound. Even when you couldn't see it you could tell when a Williams was approaching. It was disappointing when Honda modified the engine (to make it more driveable) which changed the engine sound too.
dessiato
🇪🇸 españa te quiero
V12 Ferrari
ricbake
working out how
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
lol damn straight.
I think I saw the bottom right one at Festival of Speed many years ago. Sounded like the end of the world.
