EU referendum for dummies?

[bi0boy]

Why the confusion? There are certain things that are more possible out of the EU than in. And these limitations placed upon us by the EU will only increase over time as it feels more secure in its power. Any remaining 'progressive' elements of the EU will be gone in 10 years time, and there will be no way to challenge the system democratically at that point. At the very least, on a domestic level we can change things slowly via the electoral system. Good luck against the commission though.

We can challenge the system democratically at any point by having an in/out referendum. The UK government can also take the UK out of the EU without a referendum. Why would you want to leave when the right-wingers are in position to set the agenda. Why not elect a left-wing government first and have them set the leave terms?

 

[bi0boy]

I just want a quick summary of the arguments on both sides.

immigrants vs house prices

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I didn't mean a revolution in the context of taking to the streets etc. I meant a quiet revolution over a period of years that might happen as the have nots gradually begin to outnumber the haves. In the 80s/90s the neolibs could bribe the electorate with easy to get loans to buy houses that increased in value allowing remortgaging to buy new cars etc, why would anybody want to change that? They do not have any of that now so the time may be right.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

We can challenge the system democratically at any point by having an in/out referendum.

Yeah, because referendums are like two-a-penny.

The UK government can also take the UK out of the EU without a referendum.

Not in practice, now the precedent has been set for holding a referendum on the issue (twice).

Why would you want to leave when the right-wingers are in position to set the agenda. Why not elect a left-wing government first and have them set the leave terms?

They aren't in a position to set the agenda. The Tories have a wafer thing majority and are u-turning so regularly this parliament that even I'm getting dizzy. Take the fight to them now, not in some distant hypothetical point in the future when the circumstances are ideal, because they never will be ideal. But right now the Tories are weak and divided.

 

[Geri]

How to vote in the EU referendum - Martin Lewis' Blog...

Martin Lewis' view.

 

[bluescreen]

Why the confusion? There are certain things that are more possible out of the EU than in.

Such as limiting workers' rights, slackening restrictions on what to put in food or what weedkillers to sell, what levels of pollution to tolerate in air and on our beaches. Make no mistake: it is not just a future Labour government that would have more freedom, it is a Tory government too - and this is what we're stuck with now for the next three years, possibly with a post-Brexit leadership that will make the present psychopaths look positively benign.

And these limitations placed upon us by the EU will only increase over time as it feels more secure in its power.

Only if all the member states agree to an extension of power. It's hard enough to get them all to agree to anything.

Any remaining 'progressive' elements of the EU will be gone in 10 years time

Why do you say this? Are you referring to the increasing tendency to the right in Europe? From which we are mercifully free in the UK or something? Where's the left campaign on a Europe wide basis?

and there will be no way to challenge the system democratically at that point.

You think MEPs will no longer be elected, or that they will no longer have any say over legislation? Or do you think that pan-EEC democracy doesn't actually count as democracy? What smaller unit counts as a democratic unit? UK? London? Brixton?

 

[bluescreen]

*four years!

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Such as limiting workers' rights, slackening restrictions on what to put in food or what weedkillers to sell, what levels of pollution to tolerate in air and on our beaches. Make no mistake: it is not just a future Labour government that would have more freedom, it is a Tory government too - and this is what we're stuck with now for the next three years, possibly with a post-Brexit leadership that will make the present psychopaths look positively benign.

Working rights are not protected by EU though. I don't know how many times the word Greece has to be uttered to get this point across. As for the Tories having more freedom to implement what they want... well bloody well fight them then. The risk with democracy is that sometimes you lose. Just keep battling.

Only if all the member states agree to an extension of power. It's hard enough to get them all to agree to anything. Why do you say this? Are you referring to the increasing tendency to the right in Europe? From which we are mercifully free in the UK or something? Where's the left campaign on a Europe wide basis? You think MEPs will no longer be elected, or that they will no longer have any say over legislation? Or do you think that pan-EEC democracy doesn't actually count as democracy? What smaller unit counts as a democratic unit? UK? London? Brixton?

The Parliament may well be elected but it only has rubber-stamping authority. It's the commission alone that can propose legislation and we have no way as a populace to boot them out because they are appointed not elected. Even when it comes to the European Parliament, we are a tiny voice that has almost no impact. And who are the opposition on an EU level anyway? How can those in power be held to account when no such thing as a shadow EU cabinet even exists?

 

[Pingu]

i am in a similar position Thora there is so much bullshit flying around that i cant make an informed decision- so i am not bothering to vote,

the way i see it :

remain... scary stuff happens, politicians based in europe fuck up the country
leave scary stuff happens , politicians based in UK fuck up the country

both sides are focusing their arguments on how bad the other side will make things rather than saying what benefits their side will bring

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I just want a quick summary of the arguments on both sides.

Remain: EU will protect workers' rights.
Leave: EU will shit on workers' rights.

Remain: EU will stop the nasty Tories.
Leave: EU won't stop the nasty Tories.

Remain: EU makes us richer.
Leave: EU makes us poorer.

Remain: Leavists are racist.
Leave: Remainists are classist.

Remain: The EU makes us stronger.
Leave: The EU makes us weaker.

etc..

 

[J Ed]

immigrants vs house prices

This is a good summation although it's probably really immigrants vs house prices and immigrants

 

[red & green]

History and legal impact of leave


https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Brexit Legal Opinion.pdf

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

And on the other hand... RMT sets out six key reasons for leaving the EU (admittedly not as in-depth).

 

[red & green]

EU for dummies pretty much describes the political debate to date - that debate seems to boil down to "because immigration" which is nonsense - the usual cheap and easy politics -

 

[Pickman's model]

Such as limiting workers' rights, slackening restrictions on what to put in food or what weedkillers to sell, what levels of pollution to tolerate in air and on our beaches. Make no mistake: it is not just a future Labour government that would have more freedom, it is a Tory government too - and this is what we're stuck with now for the next three years, possibly with a post-Brexit leadership that will make the present psychopaths look positively benign. Only if all the member states agree to an extension of power. It's hard enough to get them all to agree to anything. Why do you say this? Are you referring to the increasing tendency to the right in Europe? From which we are mercifully free in the UK or something? Where's the left campaign on a Europe wide basis? You think MEPs will no longer be elected, or that they will no longer have any say over legislation? Or do you think that pan-EEC democracy doesn't actually count as democracy? What smaller unit counts as a democratic unit? UK? London? Brixton?

What is this eec of which you talk?

 

[Pickman's model]

i am in a similar position Thora there is so much bullshit flying around that i cant make an informed decision- so i am not bothering to vote,

the way i see it :

remain... scary stuff happens, politicians based in europe fuck up the country
leave scary stuff happens , politicians based in UK fuck up the country

both sides are focusing their arguments on how bad the other side will make things rather than saying what benefits their side will bring

Tbh politicians at Westminster have fucked up this country already

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

that debate seems to boil down to "because immigration"

You want this to be true, but it's not.

 

[red & green]

it may not be but that is what the media are promoting

 

[weltweit]

A lot of the difficulties are because no one can be sure what will happen if the UK votes leave. Remainers say, we need to remain in the single market, yet leavers say we will still have access to the single market if we leave (which will have to be negotiated). To which remainers say but, if so, you won't have the ability to shape the rules of the market and will have to accept freedom of movement of people.

 

[bluescreen]

Working rights are not protected by EU though. I don't know how many times the word Greece has to be uttered to get this point across. As for the Tories having more freedom to implement what they want... well bloody well fight them then. The risk with democracy is that sometimes you lose. Just keep battling.

Greece uses the Euro. We don't. We would have to join the Euro if we left and sought to rejoin. Greece should never have joined anyway.

The Parliament may well be elected but it only has rubber-stamping authority. It's the commission alone that can propose legislation and we have no way as a populace to boot them out because they are appointed not elected.

They are appointed by the elected governments. It's a form of representative democracy.

Even when it comes to the European Parliament, we are a tiny voice that has almost no impact.

Said every small community everywhere. Who is 'we'? What interests are 'we' seeking to preserve against 'them'?

And who are the opposition on an EU level anyway? How can those in power be held to account when no such thing as a shadow EU cabinet even exists?

As someone said above: "well bloody well fight them then. The risk with democracy is that sometimes you lose. Just keep battling."

What is this eec of which you talk?

Freudian slip. Those were the days.

 

[brogdale]

And on the other hand... RMT sets out six key reasons for leaving the EU (admittedly not as in-depth).

Yes, heard an RMT spokesman deliver this line the other evening. He concluded by weaving in an account of his recent visit to "...see comrades in the Donbass to discuss the EU's imposition of a fascist regime in Kiev."
Hmmm

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Greece uses the Euro. We don't.

All the same, where was the EU to protect them? What good are all those paper protections if when shit hits the fan they mean diddly squat?

We would have to join the Euro if we left and sought to rejoin.

I've no idea if this is true or not, and neither do you or anyone. We are straying into the realm of the uber-hyperthetical here.

They are appointed by the elected governments. It's a form of representative democracy.

How many layers detached does something cease to be actually representative though? Representatives of representatives of representatives of... etc? I'd say we are stretching it to call our own parliament representative, let alone the European Commission.

Said every small community everywhere. Who is 'we'? What interests are 'we' seeking to preserve against 'them'?

'We' are ordinary voters located in the UK. The interests we are seeking to preserve are democratic ones.

As someone said above: "well bloody well fight them then. The risk with democracy is that sometimes you lose. Just keep battling."

Fighting against a domestic political class is difficult enough. Fighting against a megalith like the EU is impossible.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fighting against a megalith like the EU is impossible.

D'you mean the EU will not let the UK leave even in the event of a leave vote?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

D'you mean the EU will not let the UK leave even in the event of a leave vote?

No.

 

[Thora]

Thanks everyone, this has not been helpful at all

 

[Pickman's model]

No.

Expand on what you mean by democratic interests pls

 

[weltweit]

Thanks everyone, this has not been helpful at all

Well, it is complicated.

Simplest answer is: Do you want to remain in the EU or not?

Do you have any feelings towards the EU?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Expand on what you mean by democratic interests pls

Meaning that if the majority of the UK electorate demand something then we are able to get it regardless of what MEPs/commisioners from other countries say.

 

[Pickman's model]

Meaning that if the majority of the UK electorate demand something then we are able to get it regardless of what MEPs/commisioners from other countries say.

Oh dear. Regardless of what the other c.350m voters in the EU think? Very democratic.

 

[Pickman's model]

Meaning that if the majority of the UK electorate demand something then we are able to get it regardless of what MEPs/commisioners from other countries say.

Oh and you know already the result on 23 June WILL NOT be the verdict of the majority of the UK electorate.