Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

[platinumsage]

Have invisible cameras generally, at undisclosed and perhaps constantly changing locations, to deter speeding in general.

Supplement these with visible ones at incident hotspots to create the maximum possible deterrence locally.

Then everyone's happy, right?

That's not the situation we currently have though. Despite that, some people want to make it illegal to share the existing incident-hotspot camera locations.

 

[maomao]

Have invisible cameras generally, at undisclosed and perhaps constantly changing locations, to deter speeding in general.

Supplement these with visible ones at incident hotspots to create the maximum possible deterrence locally.

Then everyone's happy, right?

And average speed cameras. And insurance companies who put cameras in cars to be legally obliged to hand over details of any instance of speeding.

My train was cancelled this morning and there was a twat at the bus stop who was whining about having a temp ban for speeding. I told him I'd ban him permanently. I thought he might get angry but he just started at the beginning of the story again as if I couldn't have heard it properly.

 

[maomao]

That's not the situation we currently have though. Despite that, some people want to make it illegal to share the existing incident-hotspot camera locations.

I'm not sure their effect would be reduced. People would get fines and bans which would slow them down for longer.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yes definitely a good idea to ban people from disseminating information about where others might be issued a fine by the police. In fact it's probably best to go the whole hog and jail anyone who tells anyone else where a police officer is located.

Your idea has even greater merit because speed camera locations are sites with a high frequency of accidents. Definitely don't want people to be aware of those locations so they can slow down more than they otherwise might have done.

Jesus fucking Christ you’re thick as mince

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

If only there was a way for drivers to avoid fines from cameras wherever they might be hidden.

 

[teuchter]

 

[platinumsage]

If only there was a way for drivers to avoid fines from cameras wherever they might be hidden.

You disagree with the contention that drivers slow down more for cameras that they know are there?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

You disagree with the contention that drivers slow down more for cameras that they know are there?

Drivers slow down for cameras they know are there then speed up again. We need something better. Hide cameras in random places. Move them every day. Put four in a row just a hundred yards apart. Make drivers so damn paranoid they might lose their license that they just obey the fucking speed limits.

 

[maomao]

You disagree with the contention that drivers slow down more for cameras that they know are there?

Are you denying that the purpose of said apps is to allow drivers to speed with impunity?

 

[teuchter]

That's not the situation we currently have though. Despite that, some people want to make it illegal to share the existing incident-hotspot camera locations.

You seem to be ignoring the difference between a visible camera (a driver sees it on approach) and a camera identified in advance on a map (a driver can choose to reroute their death machine to avoid any speed cameras and transfer their killing potential to sites with no deterrence).

 

[platinumsage]

.

Drivers slow down for cameras they know are there then speed up again. We need something better. Hide cameras in random places. Move them every day. Put four in a row just a hundred yards apart. Make drivers so damn paranoid they might lose their license that they just obey the fucking speed limits.

Yes we need something better, but we don’t have it. What we have is cameras located in accident black spots which cause drivers to slow down at that location by virtue of drivers being aware of them. Simply making that system slightly less effective by banning public dissemination of camera locations via navigation apps won’t be effective in reducing accidents.

 

[platinumsage]

Are you denying that the purpose of said apps is to allow drivers to speed with impunity?

Its to allow them to avoid fines by not speeding at certain accident black spots. But the purpose is irrelevant, as I said it’s the effect that matters.

 

[maomao]

Its to allow them to avoid fines by not speeding at certain accident black spots. But the purpose is irrelevant, as I said it’s the effect that matters.

So without the app how would they avoid fines?

 

[platinumsage]

So without the app how would they avoid fines?

They’d get fined more. You may hope this has some long-term effect of reducing casualties but that’s very uncertain. What is certain is that these additional fines would only have arisen through people speeding at accident black-spots that they otherwise wouldn’t have sped through. The safety implications of that should be immediately obvious.

 

[maomao]

They’d get fined more. You may hope this has some long-term effect of reducing casualties but that’s very uncertain. What is certain is that these additional fines would only have arisen through people speeding at accident black-spots that they otherwise wouldn’t have sped through. The safety implications of that should be immediately obvious.

As usual that doesn't answer my question but if your claimed reduction in accidents due to these apps is genuine you should be able to prove it. Otherwise it's just more of your stinky twattery.

 

[platinumsage]

As usual that doesn't answer my question but if your claimed reduction in accidents due to these apps is genuine you should be able to prove it. Otherwise it's just more of your stinky twattery.

The question was ought these apps be banned. I suggest to support such a ban you'd need evidence that it would reduce accidents, rather than have the apparently obvious effect of increasing them.

 

[maomao]

The question was ought these apps be banned. I suggest to support such a ban you'd need evidence that it would reduce accidents, rather than have the apparently obvious effect of increasing them.

Obvious to you apparently but you have no data to prove it. As far as I can tell they encourage speeding and are likely to cause accidents and make accidents more serious. I'm not convinced that a) every danger spot has a speed camera b) every speed camera is at a danger spot or c) speed related accidents only happen at known danger spots, all of which would have to be true to have the effect you're claiming as 'obvious'.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Its to allow them to avoid fines by not speeding

If only there was a way to do this without an app. Perhaps they could fit cars with some sort of speed indicator, and give the driver a way of controlling it.

 

[platinumsage]

Obvious to you apparently but you have no data to prove it. As far as I can tell they encourage speeding and are likely to cause accidents and make accidents more serious. I'm not convinced that a) every danger spot has a speed camera b) every speed camera is at a danger spot or c) speed related accidents only happen at known danger spots, all of which would have to be true to have the effect you're claiming as 'obvious'.

Well, you have no data to prove any of that either.

All that is certain is that a driver who uses the app to ensure they pass a speed camera at a danger spot within the speed limit hasn’t exceeded the speed limit at that danger spot.

That’s sufficient reason not to ban the app until some evidence of actual harm is forthcoming.

 

[platinumsage]

If only there was a way to do this without an app. Perhaps they could fit cars with some sort of speed indicator, and give the driver a way of controlling it.

Yeah you know that doesn’t work very well don’t you.

 

[maomao]

That’s sufficient reason not to ban the app unless evidence of actual harm is forthcoming.

It's designed to help drivers break the law. Accidents related to speed do not occur only at 'blackspots'. That's proof enough.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yeah you know that doesn’t work very well don’t you.

Because you can’t trust drivers to obey the law?. 51% of cars speed in a 30, 48% on a motorway. 87% in a 20.

 

[platinumsage]

Because you can’t trust drivers to obey the law?. 51% of cars speed in a 30, 48% on a motorway. 87% in a 20.

Yes exactly.

 

[platinumsage]

It's designed to help drivers break the law. Accidents related to speed do not occur only at 'blackspots'. That's proof enough.

As I keep saying, it doesn’t matter what it’s designed to do, but what effect it actually has.

 

[maomao]

As I keep saying, it doesn’t matter what it’s designed to do, but what effect it actually has.

You've presumed one effect and taken no account of any others.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yeah you know that doesn’t work very well don’t you.

Because drivers know they can get away with it.

So, hide the cameras. Put them anywhere and everywhere. Ban the apps. Make drivers know that literally anywhere they are, they risk fines/points.

 

[platinumsage]

Because drivers know they can get away with it.

So, hide the cameras. Put them anywhere and everywhere. Ban the apps. Make drivers know that literally anywhere they are, they risk fines/points.

Sounds like a plan. Unlike banning the apps for non-hidden cameras at blackspots, which would be silly.

 

[platinumsage]

You've presumed one effect and taken no account of any others.

One effect is obvious, the others are speculation.

 

[maomao]

One effect is obvious, the others are speculation.

It's obvious that legitimising and encouraging speeding makes roads more dangerous.

It's obvious that apps designed to be used while driving distract drivers and cause accidents.

It's not at all obvious that an app that tells drivers what they can see anyway would have any significant effect at all.

 

[platinumsage]

You’re seriously suggesting that a driver using an app to highlight speed camera locations won’t make any attempt to keep to the speed limit at those locations? I know you like to show that I am always wrong about everything, but that’s a bit of a stretch isn‘t it?

A vague wave at “legitimising and encouraging speeding” is pretty useless with no evidence to back it up.

FWIW my Volvo has built-in audible speed camera alerts turned on by default, I had to disable them myself but they still show on the map.