How much do you believe car travel costs you per mile?

[Riklet]

No, I don't mean the difference between the train/bus and the car.

It's as Chz describes above; just dividing your yearly costs by yearly miles doesn't tell you the potential cost of an individual journey that you are about to make.

If you already have the car, have paid for it and the insurance and tax and everything, then the additional per-mile cost for a journey is less than your 38p. It may be more like 20p - this (as a car owner) is what, rationally, you are comparing with the train or bus fare.

For a non car owner like me the calculation is different because all that money I haven't spent on buying & maintaining a car is, as it were, still in my pocket and available to pay public transport fares.

I dont really understand your point here. But it's an interesting topic. Most car owners don't pay their yearly costs up front any more than most public transport users.

I would say a big chunk of people pay the cost of the car, insurance and tax monthly because they simply can't afford to pay all in one go. Of course many people pay all three in one go but I would say they're a minority, albeit a large one. Im sure there are big regional, generational and class differences as you might expect.

Then there's petrol or diesel or even electric nowadays, I doubt the majority of car owners fully fill the tank (or even battery if they charge away from home) and many skint people just put £10 or £15 in. Additionally, repairs and servicing may be put off and delayed if people don't have the money, unless you're doing it yourself or there's a major problem. So many people running older vehicles leave it until the MOT or get rid of the car once costs add up. And that's not even considering the massive depreciation most vehicles experience in the first 3, 5, 10, 15 years.... does this count as money you spend too? I guess it does.

Overall this is the reason why cars are cheap in the UK. People buying on finance and upgrading rather than getting relatively expensive work done on them. Plus we have no easy second hand export market aside from Ireland (now complicated by Brexit). I do see your point with these calculations but I think most people just an approx idea of what theyre spending per month or year, broken down in a way they see fit. Where as a £150 train bill is a £150 train bill no two ways about it.

 

[teuchter]

I've never seen you factor in accessibility when talking up public transport.

So because you've "never seen" me factor in accessibility when talking up public transport, it must be something I'm oblivious to, and your conclusion is that I "don't know how bad rail travel can be for access"?

That seems a bit of a jump. Do I talk up things that are liable to reduce accessibility to transport? Don't you think that most people who want to improve public transport and to see more investment in it have increased accessibility as a fundamental motivation? Don't you think they might spend a lot of time actually using public transport and noticing all of its limitations, most of which are the result of it being insufficiently prioritised in a car-dependent society?

 

[Dystopiary]

So because you've "never seen" me factor in accessibility when talking up public transport, it must be something I'm oblivious to, and your conclusion is that I "don't know how bad rail travel can be for access"?

That seems a bit of a jump. Do I talk up things that are liable to reduce accessibility to transport? Don't you think that most people who want to improve public transport and to see more investment in it have increased accessibility as a fundamental motivation? Don't you think they might spend a lot of time actually using public transport and noticing all of its limitations, most of which are the result of it being insufficiently prioritised in a car-dependent society?

I didn't say you were oblivious. But if you're bigging up public transport, encouraging people to use it, and trying to glean any kind of data on it, it's important to factor in accessibility issues, which are still a major problem with public transport.

 

[teuchter]

I didn't say you were oblivious. But if you're bigging up public transport, encouraging people to use it, and trying to glean any kind of data on it, it's important to factor in accessibility issues, which are still a major problem with public transport.

The implication of what you're saying is that "bigging up public transport" is in itself liable to result in a worsening of accessibility to transport in general. I fundamentally disagree with this. I believe the opposite to be true.

Accessibility issues are a huge problem with the car-dependent status quo.

 

[hash tag]

The cost per mile of using a car is much greater in London than say Inverness. The insurance costs and the time the journey takes. Often in town I used to reckon an average speed of less than 10 mph.
On the plus side public transport is far more accessible here. I reckon on waiting a max 5 minutes to get a bus in to town. Fortunately I walk to work and back most days and can easily walk in to town.
I am surprised teuchter because there has been no mention of the environmental cost of using a car.

 

[moochedit]

As far as distance from work goes, you could most effectively address that by facilitating people who want to live near work but can't afford to I'd think. For every person who quite happily commutes a long way because it suits their lifestyle nicely there's probably several who'd like to live much closer but are pushed out by house prices, in London in particular. There's no particular need to force anyone to move to improve the situation.

Moving might be an option for single people (like myself) but is not so simple for those with families, where their partner might work in another city in the opersite direction and the kids are at school in your home town.

 

[Brainaddict]

Yes, that's why it's hard to unpick it. You'd need to start with incremental changes. For example, removing the standard expenses claim/tax break options for driving, while allowing expenses for public transport and cycling. It would annoy people but without totally disrupting their lives, and over time would result in some changes of behaviour.

 

[teuchter]

I am surprised @teuchter because there has been no mention of the environmental cost of using a car.

Well, it's not the question asked in this thread.
And unfortunately many drivers are happy to tell themselves that electric vehicles mean they don't need to worry about this any more (if they ever did).

 

[Elpenor]

Not sure really what the point of this thread is

teuchter doesn’t need to own a car based on where he lives and his typical journey patterns. Or so he thinks. So he’s using the thread to get a baseline figure so he can trumpet to anyone who is foolish enough to listen that he is £2k / year better off or whatever for not owning a car. Or perhaps conclude he would be better off owning a car. If only he could get an accurate cost per mile to do his calculations

Other people do, based on their individual locations and needs. And while the cost to them of owning a car may be high, it’s also essential to access or service housing, family, work (both to use to commute or to actually perform the job as in Looby case), and in fact irrelevant as the cost of not owning one would be far higher.

 

[Looby]

Yes, that's why it's hard to unpick it. You'd need to start with incremental changes. For example, removing the standard expenses claim/tax break options for driving, while allowing expenses for public transport and cycling. It would annoy people but without totally disrupting their lives, and over time would result in some changes of behaviour.

Why on earth would it be ok for a nurse or social worker for example to not be able to claim expenses for their work? Sorry but it’s just not thought through.

It wouldn’t be cost effective for most visiting professionals to spend their days on public transport and cycling unless they had a relatively small and local patch.

Also that wouldn’t often be where they live because that’s too much of a risk for some professions so they’d still need some transport to get to their area of work.

I know it seems like I’m just highlighting barriers but they need to be thought about or none of these initiatives would work.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Can we factor in the extra 1000 quid a month I'd have to pay in rent if I moved to somewhere with decent public transport?
Makes owning a car very cheap.

 

[teuchter]

Not sure really what the point of this thread is

teuchter doesn’t need to own a car based on where he lives and his typical journey patterns. Or so he thinks. So he’s using the thread to get a baseline figure so he can trumpet to anyone who is foolish enough to listen that he is £2k / year better off or whatever for not owning a car. Or perhaps conclude he would be better off owning a car. If only he could get an accurate cost per mile to do his calculations

Other people do, based on their individual locations and needs. And while the cost to them of owning a car may be high, it’s also essential to access or service housing, family, work (both to use to commute or to actually perform the job as in Looby case), and in fact irrelevant as the cost of not owning one would be far higher.

I've explained, quite openly, in posts 38, 64 and others why I'm interested in the question and what prompted it.

 

[Brainaddict]

I know it seems like I’m just highlighting barriers but they need to be thought about or none of these initiatives would work.

Well I'm glad you've started thinking about them then! That's part of the necessary work. Alas we don't have governments willing to challenge the absurd status quo in any way.

 

[Looby]

Well I'm glad you've started thinking about them then! That's part of the necessary work. Alas we don't have governments willing to challenge the absurd status quo in any way.

Patronising much?

 

[hash tag]

Well, it's not the question asked in this thread.
And unfortunately many drivers are happy to tell themselves that electric vehicles mean they don't need to worry about this any more (if they ever did).

Again this surprises and maybe disappoints me. I suspect you are also saying that you doubt the green credentials of leccy cars.

 

[kebabking]

Again this surprises and maybe disappoints me. I suspect you are also saying that you doubt the green credentials of leccy cars.

They allow people to lead the lives they wish - of course he fucking hates them.

 

[teuchter]

Again this surprises and maybe disappoints me. I suspect you are also saying that you doubt the green credentials of leccy cars.

It depends what the claimed "green credentials" are, obviously. I don't think I'd be presenting any arguments that aren't already well worn. Isn't there a whole thread about EVs though?

 

[lazythursday]

the problem really with EVs is not their 'green credentials' - of course there are issues with mining the minerals related to batteries, and the air pollution related to tyres/increased weight, but compared with ICE cars I know which I'd prefer.

The issue is that we can't decarbonise transport fast enough by relying on switching to EVs alone. It just takes too long to replace the whole fleet like that. Transport is the one sector of the economy that has completely, utterly failed to reduce emissions since 1990 and so the speed of reductions required now mean it can only be done by removing the most polluting vehicles and actively reducing the number of car miles.

 

[teuchter]

the problem really with EVs is not their 'green credentials' - of course there are issues with mining the minerals related to batteries, and the air pollution related to tyres/increased weight, but compared with ICE cars I know which I'd prefer.

The issue is that we can't decarbonise transport fast enough by relying on switching to EVs alone. It just takes too long to replace the whole fleet like that. Transport is the one sector of the economy that has completely, utterly failed to reduce emissions since 1990 and so the speed of reductions required now mean it can only be done by removing the most polluting vehicles and actively reducing the number of car miles.

hash tag originally asked about the "environmental cost" of using a car and to me this isn't just about emissions or air pollution but the physical environment that we build to accommodate widespread car use, which causes serious social harm alongside its ecological consequences.

 

[lazythursday]

hash tag originally asked about the "environmental cost" of using a car and to me this isn't just about emissions or air pollution but the physical environment that we build to accommodate widespread car use, which causes serious social harm alongside its ecological consequences.

yep, I'd absolutely agree on that

 

[hash tag]

hash tag originally asked about the "environmental cost" of using a car and to me this isn't just about emissions or air pollution but the physical environment that we build to accommodate widespread car use, which causes serious social harm alongside its ecological consequences.

We need less cars in London for sure be they Ice or EV ones. Driving in London is far from being fun these days. Getting buses or taxis
aint brilliant either.

 

[Brainaddict]

Patronising much?

Sorry, it was a reaction to the idea that you seemed to think I was putting forward a fully formed policy proposal and you needed to 'correct' the proposal. I know it's complicated, but new ways of doing things have to start somewhere. The wider idea people can discount the cost of their car use due to it being a 'business expense' is problematic. Obviously that doesn't mean nurses should be obstructed in getting where they need to. But I used to work for a technical consultancy. There are hundreds of such identical consultancies all around the country, but instead of covering their areas, they all cover huge areas, up to the whole of England, or at least half of it. This means thousands of miles of driving a week for each company, when the exact same experts (who are not that specialist) can always be found locally. How do we encourage such companies to focus locally?

 

[8ball]

We need less cars in London for sure be they Ice or EV ones. Driving in London is far from being fun these days. Getting buses or taxis
aint brilliant either.

Not sure when driving in London was last considered “fun”.

If I lived there I’d only have a car if I seriously needed to (eg. for regular trips well outside London).

 

[existentialist]

If you did not have a car, though, you would not be driving 70 miles. If there was not mass car ownership, then people would only consider jobs that were reachable by public transport.

And employers would have to think a little harder about where they located their operations in order to be near enough potential employees.

Where this idea - which I think is right in principle - falls down is in rural areas, where public transport wouldn't be quite so viable, and where people don't have much alternative to travelling considerable distances to a workplace.

 

[rubbershoes]

Tbh I never consider the marginal cost of driving. Nor the overall cost.

It's affordable for me at the moment and the cost of fuel, tyres etc is just one of the long list of bills that we face in our daily lives.

Not everything is about money. I could probably manage to get public transport down to the coast this afternoon. It would take a lot longer than driving and may cost more or less. I haven't thought about the cost. But I don't want to spend hours getting there and back when I can drive in much less time. Overall my life is better by driving there and not having the uncertainty, long duration and hassle of taking public transport

 

[Spymaster]

Tbh I never consider the marginal cost of driving. Nor the overall cost.

It's affordable for me at the moment and the cost of fuel, tyres etc is just one of the long list of bills that we face in our daily lives.

Not everything is about money. I could probably manage to get public transport down to the coast this afternoon. It would take a lot longer than driving and may cost more or less. I haven't thought about the cost. But I don't want to spend hours getting there and back when I can drive in much less time. Overall my life is better by driving there and not having the uncertainty, long duration and hassle of taking public transport

Same. I don't think I've ever contemplated the cost per mile of driving.

I drive for convenience and pleasure, neither of which are cost considerations. I'd still do both if public transport was considerably cheaper.

 

[Chz]

I live in London, so owning a car is 100% a luxury item. But it's one I can afford, and with half my family in France it's a convenient one to own as well. Since Brexit, renting a car to drive to the Continent in is a massive, massive pain in the arse. (I did look into it before we bought the current vehicle)

I think if I were a single person, and not representing a family, there's no way I'd own a car even in Outer London here. But it's not nonsensical as transport for three.

 

[lazythursday]

And employers would have to think a little harder about where they located their operations in order to be near enough potential employees.

Where this idea - which I think is right in principle - falls down is in rural areas, where public transport wouldn't be quite so viable, and where people don't have much alternative to travelling considerable distances to a workplace.

Well it's horses for courses. We need policies that aim to reduce car ownership in urban areas while accepting they're necessary for many people in rural places (that's not to say we don't also need better public transport in rural places too of course for basic accessibility reasons).

 

[teuchter]

Well it's horses for courses. We need policies that aim to reduce car ownership in urban areas while accepting they're necessary for many people in rural places (that's not to say we don't also need better public transport in rural places too of course for basic accessibility reasons).

Worth mentioning that many of these rural areas had viable public transport connections to employment areas before private cars became a thing. Which means that inequality of access to transport in such places is much greater than it was historically. When we see car owning rural dwellers going on about taking away their freedoms to live their life as they wish, they are very much talking about their freedoms, not those of their less privileged neighbours who can't or don't drive (or perhaps their future selves in old age). And of course any policies that are actually going to get implemented are not going to infringe on their freedoms in any great way. Perhaps they will have to pay a little extra to park in their local town or something like that.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Perhaps people who are fortunate enough to be able to afford to live in cities should be taxed a a little more to cover the cost of public transport for rural areas.