EnglishWelsh Defence League, British Campaign agin Muslim Extremist, Causuals United

[trevhagl]

the problem is that no one decent LIKES kiddy fiddlers or terrorists, so how to argue?

The right wing use these issues because their OTHER beliefs (anti welfare state, anti NHS, anti workers rights) are maybe not so popular with the poor

 

[Rod Sleeves]

It's just the No Surrender mob with a different target and a new way to reach the masses (Facebook etc.)

You still posting on the UBA forums?

 

[STFC]

I never did.

May 2009 join date? Hmmm...

 

[treelover]

as usual hard and long community buliding work is required to develop confidence again in w/class communities and areas: the IWCA under 12's Football Tournament which saw over 200 people involved and paid for out of IWCA councillors funds, may be a start, better than UAF shouting out tired slogans anyway.

http://www.iwca.info/?p=10144

 

[belboid]

doing one doesnt and shouldn't stop anyone doing the other. It's a dangerous and false dichotomoy to present it as such

 

[treelover]

I look forward to UAF/SWP doing the 'other' I won't hold my breath...

 

[belboid]

please do

 

[Stoat Boy]

To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.

These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.

Valid points but the primary chant of these people seems to be about 'wanting our country back' and whilst its nothing in itself I think it does represent a pretty much majority view amongst white working class people in this country that the changes of the last 50 or so years have not benefited them.

Now you can argue as to why this perception might be wrong or right but for me it still does not alter the fact that many feel it.

And they also feel that they have been left behind in many ways by Government and politics on all sorts of levels.

Now of course the clock cannot be turned back and there never was a 'glorious bygone era' but there is still a great deal of largely subdued anger amongst the group of people who still make up the vast majority of this countrys population about how things have turned out.

Yes they might be wealthier in terms of material items but there seems to be no real sense of belonging or idea that everybody is pulling in the same direction. These are pretty vague terms for something that I cannot put my finger on but I could summon it up as a desire to be patriotic without really having the social-economic structure to express that through. What is it to be English now ?

Maybe its a wider thing and that English nationalism is still something that has to find its own true voice but I see nobody from either side of the political fence really wanting to come to grips with it.

And that means that it has the potential to get very messy. Please note my use of the word potential as I think it could also become something very positive but it seems to be very much unchartered political territory and that people who have tinkered for short term political gain need to really think about what they might be creating for future generations.

 

[durruti02]

Valid points but the primary chant of these people seems to be about 'wanting our country back' and whilst its nothing in itself I think it does represent a pretty much majority view amongst white working class people in this country that the changes of the last 50 or so years have not benefited them.

Now you can argue as to why this perception might be wrong or right but for me it still does not alter the fact that many feel it.

And they also feel that they have been left behind in many ways by Government and politics on all sorts of levels.

Now of course the clock cannot be turned back and there never was a 'glorious bygone era' but there is still a great deal of largely subdued anger amongst the group of people who still make up the vast majority of this countrys population about how things have turned out.

Yes they might be wealthier in terms of material items but there seems to be no real sense of belonging or idea that everybody is pulling in the same direction. These are pretty vague terms for something that I cannot put my finger on but I could summon it up as a desire to be patriotic without really having the social-economic structure to express that through. What is it to be English now ?

Maybe its a wider thing and that English nationalism is still something that has to find its own true voice but I see nobody from either side of the political fence really wanting to come to grips with it.

And that means that it has the potential to get very messy. Please note my use of the word potential as I think it could also become something very positive but it seems to be very much unchartered political territory and that people who have tinkered for short term political gain need to really think about what they might be creating for future generations.

well worded post .. i agree

 

[durruti02]

That'll be the link from Jeff Marsh the Cardiff City Soul Crew author (originally from Barry). Didn't realise he had these kind of leanings though.

yes he seems to be a key player

 

[durruti02]

To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.

These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.

1) are you saying it is illegitimate for people to have concerns about Islamic extremism, particularly after Islamic extremists have killed dozens of people bombs in london? my opinion is "white english" should sort out their own world before condemning anothers. but if i knew people who had died in london boombs or soldiers who had died in afghanistan maybe i would be less 'political'

2) 'these people' ffs is EVERYONE THE SAME!! in ANY group there are differrent individuals .. clearly there are BNP clearly there are racists but equally clearly there are non racists and anti BNP .. the issue is how to deal with that

you like many other people forget that the vast majoroty of people do NOT live in Brixton and are white and see their nation as at least OK and are not happy as to what has happenned to it. . If YOU don't want to understand this majority then fuck off .. because if this majority continue to be drawn to the right we are all fucked and you more than me

we need to be thinking about how to engage with this majority ..

 

[tbaldwin]

They do. But they are also 'twats' who are willing to organise and engage in street demonstrations in not only a confrontational manner but in places that would be best defined as 'enemy' territory.

Slate them as much as you want if it makes you feel better about yourselves but it strikes me that the fact that a predominantely working class 'movement' can emerge and the only arguement the left can have is about whether to oppose them or not says it all.

Maybe the left should be looking to engage with them. Ooops, silly me. Its working class white people involved. Not really the lefts cup of tea is it ?

Sadly very very true.
It shows the extent of the Lefts retreat from class politics to liberal bollocks.

 

[tbaldwin]

To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.

These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.

So what do you propose tarannau? should we ignore or oppose them?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

1) are you saying it is illegitimate for people to have concerns about Islamic extremism, particularly after Islamic extremists have killed dozens of people bombs in london? my opinion is "white english" should sort out their own world before condemning anothers. but if i knew people who had died in london boombs or soldiers who had died in afghanistan maybe i would be less 'political'

2) 'these people' ffs is EVERYONE THE SAME!! in ANY group there are differrent individuals .. clearly there are BNP clearly there are racists but equally clearly there are non racists and anti BNP .. the issue is how to deal with that

you like many other people forget that the vast majoroty of people do NOT live in Brixton and are white and see their nation as at least OK and are not happy as to what has happenned to it. . If YOU don't want to understand this majority then fuck off .. because if this majority continue to be drawn to the right we are all fucked and you more than me

we need to be thinking about how to engage with this majority ..

You cannot surely believe that this is in any way whatsoever a response to or motivated by concern regarding "Islamic extremism". Perhaps "no Irish no Blacks" was motivated by concerns regarding the IRA and black-on-white street crime. You know, the vast majority of people do NOT live in Brixton - and they're white!

BTW Kristallnacht was motivated by concerns about Jewish extremism.

 

[tbaldwin]

BTW Kristallnacht was motivated by concerns about Jewish extremism.

What point are you trying to make FM?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

What point are you trying to make FM?

Oh come on, that's not a hard one, surely. That was the "exaggerated Godwinning-myself make the point really obvious in a crude way" part.

 

[Bajie]

Seems to me that this lot would have being going on about the IRA 20 years ago, then like now though it seems more a complex picture than they are all hand in hand with the BNP, but there does sometimes seem to be a lot of crossover between these sorts of groups and organised political parties.

 

[Bajie]

This Mr Angry probably sums up what they all think (link from the depths of their facebook page)

http://www.patcondell.net/index.html

 

[The39thStep]

From what I know of football firms and the people who make them up, they tend to fall into the Tory working class category.
I am sure there are some ''fascists'' there.

The problem for those on here who want to physically confront them, are that they will be veterans of many street battles. They fight because they like it, not for any political motives.

And when it comes to street fighting they are not stupid. They will look to pick of the opposition before and after the main event, where there are less police around.
It really depends on how hard core football thugs they are, who will turn up on the day.

If it is serious members of some football firms planning to turn up, then the UAF or antifa will be no match for them.
What could turn the tables on them, are if young Muslims turn up to fight them. But this is what they what, from what I can see.

Maybe it will turn out to be a non event anyway.

Where on earth did you get your 'political' make up of football 'firms' from?

 

[sonny61]

Where on earth did you get your 'political' make up of football 'firms' from?

First hand knowledge. Not that I was involved, but I used to go to football matches for years.

 

[Pickman's model]

top stuff

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

All we need to do is shout Nazi scum off our streets

 

[durruti02]

You cannot surely believe that this is in any way whatsoever a response to or motivated by concern regarding "Islamic extremism". Perhaps "no Irish no Blacks" was motivated by concerns regarding the IRA and black-on-white street crime. You know, the vast majority of people do NOT live in Brixton - and they're white!

BTW Kristallnacht was motivated by concerns about Jewish extremism.

FM do you honestly believe everyone in a group, be it Tory Party/ Labour Party/BNP/or this lot, ALL think identically??????

 

[cantsin]

Valid points but the primary chant of these people seems to be about 'wanting our country back' and whilst its nothing in itself I think it does represent a pretty much majority view amongst white working class people in this country that the changes of the last 50 or so years have not benefited them.

Now you can argue as to why this perception might be wrong or right but for me it still does not alter the fact that many feel it.

And they also feel that they have been left behind in many ways by Government and politics on all sorts of levels.

Now of course the clock cannot be turned back and there never was a 'glorious bygone era' but there is still a great deal of largely subdued anger amongst the group of people who still make up the vast majority of this countrys population about how things have turned out.

Yes they might be wealthier in terms of material items but there seems to be no real sense of belonging or idea that everybody is pulling in the same direction. These are pretty vague terms for something that I cannot put my finger on but I could summon it up as a desire to be patriotic without really having the social-economic structure to express that through. What is it to be English now ?

Maybe its a wider thing and that English nationalism is still something that has to find its own true voice but I see nobody from either side of the political fence really wanting to come to grips with it.

And that means that it has the potential to get very messy. Please note my use of the word potential as I think it could also become something very positive but it seems to be very much unchartered political territory and that people who have tinkered for short term political gain need to really think about what they might be creating for future generations.

when the fuck did working people own / have "this country " that they now want back ? 1919 / 1926 for fleeting moments ? doubt you were referring to then tbh

what was going on pre - the last 50 years that you "think " working people hark back to - non immigration maybe ?

Durrutti - this blokes a fraud and you're a mug

 

[durruti02]

and you know seem to know nothing about working class history .. people RIGHTLY see this as THEIR country. Unlike the middle class the w/c actually DID build this country, the roads, the cars, the houses etc etc And they again in their millions fought and died again for what they see as THEIR country. Until the left understand this 'nationalism lite', they will NEVER be able to relate to w/c people.

And also the w/c DID have power in this country. Through the Trade Unions and the Labour Party w/c people had significant power in this country of a kind which forced previous Tory govts to act in a way that is afr to the left of the current New Labour Party and forced capital to an all out assult in the early 1980s

 

[durruti02]

fwd

" message from "seaside marshy", the organise of the brum demo: "Just for your information, we ae expecting 700 - 1000 protesters, and among the banners we will have are ones denouncing the BNP, NF and C18 we are the 4 Defence Leagues, English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish. This will be a peaceful march, and is the first of many. These will continue until our government cracks down on Islamic extremists, instead of harrassing us for protesting. See you there. Marshy"

for what it is worth ..

 

[treelover]

I'm tryIng to get a handle on this new and growing phenomeon(sic): is it like the Primrose League and the other working class Unionist organisations of the late19th/early 20th C or something completely new?

Either way, the cobweb left haven't got any idea how to understand or challenge it.

 

[durruti02]

gerry gable article in Searchlight full of inflamatory language!

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=286

 

[The39thStep]

and you know seem to know nothing about working class history .. people RIGHTLY see this as THEIR country. Unlike the middle class the w/c actually DID build this country, the roads, the cars, the houses etc etc And they again in their millions fought and died again for what they see as THEIR country. Until the left understand this 'nationalism lite', they will NEVER be able to relate to w/c people.

And also the w/c DID have power in this country. Through the Trade Unions and the Labour Party w/c people had significant power in this country of a kind which forced previous Tory govts to act in a way that is afr to the left of the current New Labour Party and forced capital to an all out assult in the early 1980s

I think you make a useful point here. Also the local working class has literally been there ( in an area for years) its often the middle class types that are more transient, don't know local people and don't feel that same attachment.

 

[Raw SslaC]

I think you make a useful point here. Also the local working class has literally been there ( in an area for years) its often the middle class types that are more transient, don't know local people and don't feel that same attachment.

sorry to say this but this is classim by numbers.

You start of with these generalisations and expect to apply them to reality. If you forget the middle-class/working-class as some sort of defined behaviour then you might get a clearer idea of what the issue is.