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England v Algeria

ericjarvis said:
A bit of perspective here. England weren't good, but for crying out loud Algeria aren't mugs. To qualify they had to beat Egypt. That's the team that pretty much walked to their second African Nations Cup win in a row soon after. They did so despite having to play the final group game in the face of a level of intimidation that would have had any European nation banned from international football for at least a decade. They've got a mix of players who have played at the top level in Europe and youngsters destined for big things. Yet we seem to be reacting as if it should have been a walk over for England.

England's top players didn't perform at all. It was a totally lousy performance. And they didn't lose. They didn't lose against a competent team playing out of their skins. When Man Utd do that everyone talks about how real champions grind out a result when things aren't going well.

So I'm disappointed. However most of the reaction seems to be completely ridiculous. I blame the over hyping of the Premiership. It's NOT the top league in the world. La Liga is where the very best players mostly are. The Premiership ranks as equal number two with Serie A, and with the Bundesliga not far behind. That's how it is if you ignore the hype. Just look at how the Champions League generally pans out for proof. We overrate our domestic league, and as a result overrate our own players. So we go into a competition like this with completely unrealistic expectations.

England were crap. However so far so have been France and Spain. Likewise Germany in their second game. Should we be dismissing Spain and Germany as challengers for the competition, no way.
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ALgeria did not play out of their skins - they were quite shit.

But meant they were better then england.

That was the worse england performance I have seen since the dephs of inepitude plumbed by turnip talyor. At least he had the excuse that he was trying to win matches with an england team featuring the likes of geof thomas, carlton palmer, dennis wise and scott sellars.

Players like rooney, gerrard, lampard, cole and terry are/were widely considered world class and certianly dont lool overated when they play for their clubs - or indeed through the pretty impreseve qualifying phase.

Capello and the players arrived in south africa with a piss easy qualifying group, a relatively easy route to the semi-final and a collection of players who formed one of the stronger squads in the competition.
It takes some type of collective twisted genius to turn that into the real danger of an early exit and playing the worst football of the tournament. Even worse than france.
 
Kaka Tim said:
Capello and the players arrived in south africa with a piss easy qualifying group, a relatively easy route to the semi-final and a collection of players who formed one of the stronger squads in the competition.
It takes some type of collective twisted genius to turn that into the real danger of an early exit and playing the worst football of the tournament. Even worse than france.
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This is what I really don't understand. It's not really like this has been coming for a long time. We looked good in qualifying, things seemed to be improving...

Danny Baker said this morning that watching the game last night was like going to someone's house and sensing that they've just had a big row. I don't know if there's been an argument or if it's something else, but last night just felt really weird. As I said to a friend, I'm almost more curious as to what on earth caused last night's mood than depressed about the performance. Almost.
 
twistedAM said:
I could be wrong but I've a feeling the Premiership clubs might have had more foreign players in them that LL, SA and Bundesliga teams.
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Yeah, but Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, et al all compete successfully at the highest level, so the idea that a weak domestic league is part of the problem is nonsense.
 
Lord Camomile said:
This is what I really don't understand. It's not really like this has been coming for a long time. We looked good in qualifying, things seemed to be improving...

Danny Baker said this morning that watching the game last night was like going to someone's house and sensing that they've just had a big row. I don't know if there's been an argument or if it's something else, but last night just felt really weird. As I said to a friend, I'm almost more curious as to what on earth caused last night's mood than depressed about the performance. Almost.
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Yeah, this. Very odd. And I expected Capello to be angrier.
 
So it bears the hallmarks of a sulky players' revolt at Capello not affording them the soft touch of previous manager's reigns. If that is the case then each and every one of them can fuck off.
 
ChrisFilter said:
Yeah, but Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, et al all compete successfully at the highest level, so the idea that a weak domestic league is part of the problem is nonsense.
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I disagree. The problems with our domestic league are that A) we play more football than anyone else and B) we play physically tougher football than anyone else C) There's so much money in it that our players don't need to improve to be set for life.

We're lucky that somehow our squad seems to be relatively intact, but if you look a bit closer, Rooney, Defoe, Terry, Gerrard, Ashley Cole, Ferdinand, Lennon, Joe Cole, Johnson have all suffered either a serious injury or big dip in form, in some cases both - that's 10 players. The only England players in the first XI who haven't suffered are whoever is in goal and Lampard, who got much better as the season wore on.

Our domestic league is hardly weak, it's a very strong league, both literally and figuratively this season showed that the strength seems to be extending further down than the top 4 of the previous 5 seasons. Usually we could just blame our league stylistically and our continued obsession with shoehorning all our players into a 442, but now it's worse, most of the top clubs don't even play a 442 or when they do (or broadcasters claim they do) then it's nothing like the kick it up to Heskey type thing we've been treated to, even at Villa. If we want a system that suits our best players and they're used to, then it has to be a 4231 like at Liverpool or 433/451 like Chelsea played for years under Mourinho. If the plan was to play 442 from the outset then surely we need more than four strikers.

I think one problem with the league for Engerlund that people seem to miss, is that there's so much money that a lot of English players who could possibly become better have no motivation to improve. It isn't that there're too many foreigners, if that were the case we'd have been romping home with the world cup/Euros in the late 70s and 80s when our club sides, composed mostly of home grown players, were by far the strongest in Europe. In fact we were shit then, we're much better now. Cheap foreigners aren't holding English players back, if we sent some or all the foreigners home, are players like Walcott suddenly going to become world beaters because they're being played more? The problem is that it's just far too easy for English players to pick up 30k-50k a week and not push themselves, because the league is so fucking bloated that it can support this kind of behaviour. The best thing for England would for these players to be forced abroad, learn things a different way, a different tempo and style of football. Carrick is a great example, he's wasted at Man Utd, he can't crack the first team, his confidence is shot and going to Man Utd hasn't made him any better as a player, in fact from an England point of view he looks a much worse proposition, he could go abroad and test himself, but where's the incentive when he's probably on 50k a week basically to keep himself in shape?
 
The problem is the premier league, or the long season, or that England were meant to be better than Algeria. The problem was that we seemed to be singularly unable to pass to each other.

However, this also shouldn't surprise anyone - this has been the basic problem in every world cup campaign I can remember. What causes it though?
 
stupid kid said:
I disagree. The problems with our domestic league are that A) we play more football than anyone else and B) we play physically tougher football than anyone else C) There's so much money in it that our players don't need to improve to be set for life.

We're lucky that somehow our squad seems to be relatively intact, but if you look a bit closer, Rooney, Defoe, Terry, Gerrard, Ashley Cole, Ferdinand, Lennon, Joe Cole, Johnson have all suffered either a serious injury or big dip in form, in some cases both - that's 10 players. The only England players in the first XI who haven't suffered are whoever is in goal and Lampard, who got much better as the season wore on.

Our domestic league is hardly weak, it's a very strong league, both literally and figuratively this season showed that the strength seems to be extending further down than the top 4 of the previous 5 seasons. Usually we could just blame our league stylistically and our continued obsession with shoehorning all our players into a 442, but now it's worse, most of the top clubs don't even play a 442 or when they do (or broadcasters claim they do) then it's nothing like the kick it up to Heskey type thing we've been treated to, even at Villa. If we want a system that suits our best players and they're used to, then it has to be a 4231 like at Liverpool or 433/451 like Chelsea played for years under Mourinho. If the plan was to play 442 from the outset then surely we need more than four strikers.

I think one problem with the league for Engerlund that people seem to miss, is that there's so much money that a lot of English players who could possibly become better have no motivation to improve. It isn't that there're too many foreigners, if that were the case we'd have been romping home with the world cup/Euros in the late 70s and 80s when our club sides, composed mostly of home grown players, were by far the strongest in Europe. In fact we were shit then, we're much better now. Cheap foreigners aren't holding English players back, if we sent some or all the foreigners home, are players like Walcott suddenly going to become world beaters because they're being played more? The problem is that it's just far too easy for English players to pick up 30k-50k a week and not push themselves, because the league is so fucking bloated that it can support this kind of behaviour. The best thing for England would for these players to be forced abroad, learn things a different way, a different tempo and style of football. Carrick is a great example, he's wasted at Man Utd, he can't crack the first team, his confidence is shot and going to Man Utd hasn't made him any better as a player, in fact from an England point of view he looks a much worse proposition, he could go abroad and test himself, but where's the incentive when he's probably on 50k a week basically to keep himself in shape?
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so why were we shit in the 50s, 70s and 80s when the players didn't earn so much?
 
ChrisFilter said:
Er... English teams have dominated the Champions League over the last few years, last season apart.
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The Special One has dominated the Champions League since 2003-4. And the only question is... after he's done at Real Madrid, how much should we pay him to manage England?
 
In addition Rooney's tantrum and gerrards comments afterwards are rapiddly leading me to the conclusion that many of the players are indeed arrogant toss pots who dont give a fuck about the fans and who think they have a god given right to win matches just by turning up.

I'm almost hoping they lose against slovenia.
 
What a complete load of rubbish. 11 men with exactly zero flair and imagination, and yet another manager who doesn't even understand what "plan B" means.

Anyone... anywhere... still think this side is remotely world championship contenders? :D
 
stupid dogbot said:
yet another manager who doesn't even understand what "plan B" means.
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That was also one of my biggest concerns - I really thought one of the big plusses of Capello was supposed to be he would have some kindof back-up plan, some ideas beyond the starting line-up.

Not on last night's evidence :(
 
tangerinedream said:
so why were we shit in the 50s, 70s and 80s when the players didn't earn so much?
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I'm not old enough to actually remember, but I'd guess the style of our league and tactics still had something to do with it - probably our inability to keep the ball which is always going to be more important in the summer heat of a world cup. I've never seen an English side that passes the way the current Spanish side does, although they looked shit the other day.
 
Lord Camomile said:
That was also one of my biggest concerns - I really thought one of the big plusses of Capello was supposed to be he would have some kindof back-up plan, some ideas beyond the starting line-up.

Not on last night's evidence :(
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Yeah. Tbh, we might as well have just kept Erikson.

Still trying Gerrard and Lampard, all these years on? Yep.

Still thinking Heskey is a world class player? Yep.

Nothing has changed.
 
Lord Camomile said:
That was also one of my biggest concerns - I really thought one of the big plusses of Capello was supposed to be he would have some kindof back-up plan, some ideas beyond the starting line-up.

Not on last night's evidence :(
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Well, he did change things a bit, but to be honest just about every player bar Barry & James was shite and totally unable to string a pass together. When you're confronted with that as a manager, what can you do??:confused:
 
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