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Red Sky said:
I spoke to someone there and that was their estimate. I think more important is the composition of the crowd. From what I could gather this was basically all old EDL. Early days yet though and I wasn't there.
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From the pictures I've seen there seemed to be quite a large Pride presence. Not saying that there's no LGBT+ support for EDL, but I find it unlikely in those numbers.
 
Fascinating argument captured on the sidelines between a march attendee and some people who opposed it, which shows the main perception from both sides. I think she is right to be alarmed but wrong for labelling them all as nazis and he doesn't realise that the composition and nature of the protest enboldens the extreme right, who will use it for growth, and that ordinary people are intimidated by this style of protest.

 
Anudder Oik said:
Fascinating argument captured on the sidelines between a march attendee and some people who opposed it, which shows the main perception from both sides. I think she is right to be alarmed but wrong for labelling them all as nazis and he doesn't realise that the composition and nature of the protest enboldens the extreme right, who will use it for growth, and that ordinary people are intimidated by this style of protest.

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Fuck's sake. What a wasted opportunity.
 
The man whose channel that's posted on is like a Swedish Tim Pool, just with a cycle helmet instead of the bulletproof vest. Look how he calls the EDL 'the patriots'.:rolleyes:
 
killer b said:
Oh look. There's Annudder Oik sharing far right propaganda videos again.

Fascinating.
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That's very simplistic. Perhaps you could explain why there are "no" leftwing vloggers covering protests, like absolutely none. The only videos available are from right wing youtubers and unlike yourself I am unable to nurture an opinion by abstaining from seeing what the other side are doing, which seems to be the case of the girl in the video who is quite unprepared to win an easy argument.

I came across this one by typing "Manchester" in the youtube search and scrolling through the various videos. Nothing strange in that.

PS, I think it would constitute propaganda if it had been edited with cuts to make one side or the other look stupid but it is one long take. I don't care who made the video.
 
killer b said:
sure that's how you came across it.
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I've spoken about this before, do a search yourself and you'll see. The right is omni present in youtube while the left is inexplicably absent.

I use different search filters to find coverage of events to get an idea of what's going on. It's usually more effective than watching the TV news.
 
I wonder how it came to be that only the racist alt-media covered the secretly organised racist's march in Manchester at the weekend?
 
Red Sky said:
Realistically yes. The far right's tendency to film and livestream themselves has lead to some substantial prison sentences.
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As well as FIT, Redwatch, you can add The Economic League (and their subsequent rebrands) I guess. There's always been a very real need for left activists to keep identities hidden - a long-standing reality that the public are generally unaware of unfortunately, leading to false assumptions about the wearing of bandanas and black.

Sometimes it's because we want to chuck a brick through Macdonalds' window of course, but not always. :D
 
I wonder if after last week's Liverpool fiasco and numerous sad PEGIDA events we were complacent. According to UAF there were 500 in opposition (so say the 200 quoted above). Either of which would have been enough to swamp any fascist mobilisation in the last twelve months.

Eternal vigilance.
 
manc.jpg


you don't get much more manc than that.
 
I know a few blokes , who I am on good terms with, who will say that Tommy Robinson says says some good things. ie that he is against Islamic terrorism, the burkha and sharia law. Of course I tell them that he has another agenda and that he gets support from the far right but they'll come back and say why aren't the left doing something about it. so I tell them about the dozen or so fighting alongside the Kurds actually doing something to fight ISIS and then they'll say why don't the left hold demonstration over here supporting the fighters and against Islamic extremism , the burkha and sharia law. And then I get stuck . We've missed an opportunity and that's why people like that black lad , the Asian girl in the Union Jack and no doubt a couple of hundred others joined Robinsons demo. Of course there were some nazis on it but there would have been a lot more non nazis on it as well.
 
The39thStep said:
I know a few blokes , who I am on good terms with, who will say that Tommy Robinson says says some good things. ie that he is against Islamic terrorism, the burkha and sharia law. Of course I tell them that he has another agenda and that he gets support from the far right but they'll come back and say why aren't the left doing something about it. so I tell them about the dozen or so fighting alongside the Kurds actually doing something to fight ISIS and then they'll say why don't the left hold demonstration over here supporting the fighters and against Islamic extremism , the burkha and sharia law. And then I get stuck . We've missed an opportunity and that's why people like that black lad , the Asian girl in the Union Jack and no doubt a couple of hundred others joined Robinsons demo. Of course there were some nazis on it but there would have been a lot more non nazis on it as well.
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It is a shame it has come to this but if we are honest here, then sections of the left are at fault. There were too many people (SWP, George Galloway etc...) who were too comfortable with working with and campaigning alongside Islamists and supporters of terrorism. The left should have never gone anywhere near the likes of the Muslim Association of Britain (a Muslim Brotherhood front group) or CAGE but they did.
 
The39thStep said:
I know a few blokes , who I am on good terms with, who will say that Tommy Robinson says says some good things. ie that he is against Islamic terrorism, the burkha and sharia law. Of course I tell them that he has another agenda and that he gets support from the far right but they'll come back and say why aren't the left doing something about it. so I tell them about the dozen or so fighting alongside the Kurds actually doing something to fight ISIS and then they'll say why don't the left hold demonstration over here supporting the fighters and against Islamic extremism , the burkha and sharia law. And then I get stuck . We've missed an opportunity and that's why people like that black lad , the Asian girl in the Union Jack and no doubt a couple of hundred others joined Robinsons demo. Of course there were some nazis on it but there would have been a lot more non nazis on it as well.
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I remember one of the TAL lads ( I think ) writing about a possible pro PPK (?) / anti ISIS demo before an NF / Dover demo, but it didnt actually happen in the end. Would / could have been an important starting point possibly.

Reflexive , ritualised street opposition to reasonably well staged ' anti hate' type demos like the one in Manc, however much right wing opportunism is at the heart of it, can be a mistake imo. I saw someone who seemed vaguely non suspect on twitter referring to 'antifa / Momentum thugs 'shouting in girls faces' type thing...not good .
 
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mather said:
It is a shame it has come to this but if we are honest here, then sections of the left are at fault. There were too many people (SWP, George Galloway etc...) who were too comfortable with working with and campaigning alongside Islamists and supporters of terrorism. The left should have never gone anywhere near the likes of the Muslim Association of Britain (a Muslim Brotherhood front group) or CAGE but they did.
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The British left has many weaknesses, but it's ability to relate to and work with Muslim minorities is not one of them. If they had taken the approach you suggest they would have cheered on Blair's invasions and Cameron's bombing missions *. They would demonise the entire Muslim community and support (nay initiate) bans on headscarves in schools etc, etc.

The end result would have been TR at the head of 200,000 in Manchester and a virtual lockdown in Muslim areas.

If you think that's far fetched you only have to look across the Channel and contemplate the rise of Le Pen and the FN. IMO largely down to the French left's decision that secularism was more important than anti-racism.

Last weekend AFA/HnH/SUTR/UAF took their eyes off the ball and the fascists got a boost. The way to counter that isn't to agree that Muslims are the problem, but to get out there and expose the real nature of the hardened fascists to the audience they trying to pull behind them.

* E2A There are sections of the left that do this, eg AWL.
 
mather said:
It is a shame it has come to this but if we are honest here, then sections of the left are at fault. There were too many people (SWP, George Galloway etc...) who were too comfortable with working with and campaigning alongside Islamists and supporters of terrorism. The left should have never gone anywhere near the likes of the Muslim Association of Britain (a Muslim Brotherhood front group) or CAGE but they did.
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never? MAB were heavily involved in 2003. There were muslim groups involved in the coalition against the first Gulf war. For all I know there were organised muslim groups active in the movement against the Suez invasion. There have been umpteen iterations of pro-Palestinian support since, well I dunno, the Balfour declaration was made?

Are you suggesting that over at least the last 25 years or so 'the left' should have organised in ways that excluded explicitly muslim groups?
 
cantsin said:
cldnt get this out of my head - what do you mean exactly ? ( ie : to engage / discuss with the bloke ? )
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Exactly that. The EDL-aligned bloke was happy to stand and debate, was clearly not an out-and-out ideological fascist, and the opportunity was there to engage with him in a way that would at least sow some seeds of doubt in his mind (as some were attempting to do), and at best to bring him over to the side of the angels. Instead he went away with his worst preconceptions of antifa having been reinforced, an encounter which he'll surely now recount to many others in his social circle who are currently in two minds.

I'm all for intimidation and abuse of fash where needed or useful, but as a one-size-fits-all response to anyone finding themselves in the company of the far right - particularly at events like this which were clearly designed to present themselves as something else - it's counter-productive.
 
Corax said:
Exactly that. The EDL-aligned bloke was happy to stand and debate, was clearly not an out-and-out ideological fascist, and the opportunity was there to engage with him in a way that would at least sow some seeds of doubt in his mind (as some were attempting to do), and at best to bring him over to the side of the angels. Instead he went away with his worst preconceptions of antifa having been reinforced, an encounter which he'll surely now recount to many others in his social circle who are currently in two minds.

I'm all for intimidation and abuse of fash where needed or useful, but as a one-size-fits-all response to anyone finding themselves in the company of the far right - particularly at events like this which were clearly designed to present themselves as something else - it's counter-productive.
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agree 100% - and with cameras there, its everywhere now. V depressing that it had to be her, there, then. The bloke was willing to talk, she just shouted in his face, v v frustrating this.
 
19force8 said:
Last weekend AFA/HnH/SUTR/UAF took their eyes off the ball and the fascists got a boost. The way to counter that isn't to agree that Muslims are the problem, but to get out there and expose the real nature of the hardened fascists to the audience they trying to pull behind them.

.
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so you think bigger mobilisation in Manc was the answer ? The fascist's 'boost' was from a reasonably well attended march, around an ostensibly non racist theme that they're always going to do well with, 2 weeks after a savage terror attack. Not sure bigger , or more militant oppo would have helped diminish that boost, even if engagement had help expose the fash core in the march ?
 
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