EDL watch

[Thunderfist]

Well farage isn't running about doing the conga for starters . Outside of the odd wedding you're highly unlikely to see the working class engaged in that activity .

Outside the odd wedding you're unlikley to see anyone doing it (or the Okie-Cokie).

"The social background of those behind it , while contributory perhaps to its adoption as a method, is largely irrelevant as regards to its usefulness as a method " - Absolutley correct, and yet virtually everyone has made an issue of their supposed class background (which as I have said in two cases that I know of is off the mark).

Being on this forum is sometimes like watching a piss-poor police procedural - whatever the issue the villain is identical. What's stopping our revolution? Is it the police, the oligarchy, the judiciary, the media barons, the bankers or the aristocracy? No - it's those fucking middle class students with their 'identity politics'.

Why is this? Probably because most of the working class as fuck posters on here have in fact been through some form of further education and don't work in manual trades. It's a pretty natural human tendency to define yourself against what's immediately next to you and it's in full flower here.

 

[Citizen66]

I'm a blue collar worker. What about you, Thunderfist?

 

[Thunderfist]

I'm a blue collar worker. What about you, Thunderfist?

Blue collar - don't want to say what i do for a living on a public forum but I'm quite familiar with man's eternal quest for his tape measure. I'm from a working class background, both parents left school at 16 and were in manual/clerical work. I was offered every opportunity to climb the social ladder however but fucked it up by going to live up a tree.

 

[DotCommunist]

unwashed, in need of vanish collar here- collarism as class indicator is merican anyway

 

[Thunderfist]

unwashed, in need of vanish collar here- collarism as class indicator is merican anyway

The trouble is that all this autobiographical shit is exactly what our arch-enemies the middle class intersectionalist privilege theory kids do all the time.

 

[Citizen66]

The trouble is that all this autobiographical shit is exactly what our arch-enemies the middle class intersectionalist privilege theory kids do all the time.

But you appear to be gleefully telling us we're middle class. I'm telling you I'm not, you appear to be coy about it.

 

[Thunderfist]

But you appear to be gleefully telling us we're middle class. I'm telling you I'm not, you appear to be coy about it.

I don't think that not announcing what I do for a living and where I might be found on a public forum is 'coy'.

 

[Citizen66]

I don't think that announcing what I do for a living and where I might be found on a public forum is 'coy'. Do you have a degree?

I don't have a degree. I did an apprenticeship. I don't think there was any particular bar to me going to uni, my sister did, but I wanted to earn money upon leaving school.

 

[Limerick Red]

What's stopping our revolution? Is it the police, the oligarchy, the judiciary, the media barons, the bankers or the aristocracy? No - it's those fucking middle class students with their 'identity politics'.

But it is, as anyone involved in any kind of broad front campaign work can attest to, identity politics is the fuckin scourge of revolutionary politics and is middle class / bourgeoise by nature , it's the defence of self interest over common interest, it's been used as a tool to smash resistance, to terrify away those who are not au fait with it's rules and regulations, it's purpose is disorganisation. Connolly was correct when he identified it's the stomach not the brain which was the economic basis of politics.

The attacks on ukip are attacks of the middle class left / labour affiliated establishment being rocked, so the focus can be fully switched from the amount of wars and interventions labour have being involved in, the amount of immigrant detention centres they built, the amount of racist mugs they printed to ... This ukip geezer blames the bad weather on homosexuals, and the no platforming of a racist prick having his dinner is in defence of the establishment, let's paint Farage a full on nazi, let's move all our UAF efforts over to stand up to ukip, because the building ukip up as a fascist party that need to be no platformed allows 1) not to have to engage with what their saying and 2) not having to admit labour are sayin the exact same things

 

[Thunderfist]

But it is, as anyone involved in any kind of broad front campaign work can attest to, identity politics is the fuckin scourge of revolutionary politics and is middle class / bourgeoise by nature , it's the defence of self interest over common interest, it's been used as a tool to smash resistance, to terrify away those who are not au fait with it's rules and regulations, it's purpose is disorganisation. Connolly was correct when he identified it's the stomach not the brain which was the economic basis of politics.

The attacks on ukip are attacks of the middle class left / labour affiliated establishment being rocked, so the focus can be fully switched from the amount of wars and interventions labour have being involved in, the amount of immigrant detention centres they built, the amount of racist mugs they printed to ... This ukip geezer blames the bad weather on homosexuals, and the no platforming of a racist prick having his dinner is in defence of the establishment, let's paint Farage a full on nazi, let's move all our UAF efforts over to stand up to ukip, because the building ukip up as a fascist party that need to be no platformed allows 1) not to have to engage with what their saying and 2) not having to admit labour are sayin the exact same things

If those involve in the stunt had no other politics I'd agree with you. But the fact is that the some of them are involved in defence of asylum seekers and refugees on a day to day basis. The two I know were both involved in the anti-war movement - Ewa Jasciwiez has spent time organising with oil workers trade unions in Iraq, the other woman I know selflessly spends half her life doing humanitarian work in Calais so hearing them written off as middle class student wankers is a bit irritating.

 

[gamerunknown]

In reality if teachers from overseas came in and replaced teachers in UK schools at half the rate of pay they would be up in arms.

This is the natural tendency for capitalism. The response of any decent internationalist is to 1. integrate those individuals into trade unions, so standards are maintained both for the new arrivals and the indigenous workers and 2. do everything in one's power to stop one's government from devastating the economies of foreign countries, which forces people to migrate in the first place (the largest migrant population to England is from India, before that it was from Ireland - not a coincidence).

Think how absurd it would have been if London had excluded workers from Glasgow earlier last century when there was much higher unemployment there - or the same for any city excluding workers from any region which has seen its industries collapse.

Whether that's a "leftist" response or not I have no idea.

 

[Thunderfist]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/if-i-cant-dance-dabke-in-nigel-farages-local-pub-its-not-my-revolution/

 

[Smokeandsteam]

If those involve in the stunt had no other politics I'd agree with you. But the fact is that the some of them are involved in defence of asylum seekers and refugees on a day to day basis. The two I know were both involved in the anti-war movement - Ewa Jasciwiez has spent time organising with oil workers trade unions in Iraq, the other woman I know selflessly spends half her life doing humanitarian work in Calais so hearing them written off as middle class student wankers is a bit irritating.

Not sure what 'humanitarian work in Calais' involves given that there isn't humanitarian crisis there that I am aware of.

But the questions I was seeking an answer on:

1. What did those involved in the jaunt think they were going to achieve?
2. How do they think the stunt was perceived outside of their bubble?

still haven't been answered.

I know you aren't a spokesman for those involved but as you know some of them and your suggestion is that they are serious about their politics so I am genuinely interested to know what they thought would be achieved by hounding Farage and his family out of a pub.

 

[DotCommunist]

the ongoing refugee camps there right? constant gang exploitation and police harrasment, tent towns and the like

 

[cantsin]

If those involve in the stunt had no other politics I'd agree with you. But the fact is that the some of them are involved in defence of asylum seekers and refugees on a day to day basis. The two I know were both involved in the anti-war movement - Ewa Jasciwiez has spent time organising with oil workers trade unions in Iraq, the other woman I know selflessly spends half her life doing humanitarian work in Calais so hearing them written off as middle class student wankers is a bit irritating.

fair points, not clever to write them off as individuals while I sit behind a keyboard doing f/a about f/a, its the nature/focus of this particular action that seems problematic, and what they did / and projected collectively (whether you are pro or against ) outweighs at the time what they do / are individually.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/if-i-cant-dance-dabke-in-nigel-farages-local-pub-its-not-my-revolution/

Now we are getting somewhere.

The aims of the protest were:

1. solidarity-building
2. boundaries-breaching
3. antifascist action

To what extent were these achieved by the Cabaret and pub invasion?

 

[Limerick Red]

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/if-i-cant-dance-dabke-in-nigel-farages-local-pub-its-not-my-revolution/

In the first paragraph describes Farage as a fascist

 

[tufty79]

Is this the same ewa jasciwiez that took part in a spectacular action fuckup, which seriously impacted my life, and then threatened to sue me for 'defammation' when i discussed it? Not entirely sure i'm a fan of whatever she think solidarity is.

 

[editor]

I have read threads for a while, my first post so here goes.

Actually, you've been banned three times already so let's go for a straight four in a row.

 

[Citizen66]

Not Firky, then.

 

[Thunderfist]

Is this the same ewa jasciwiez that took part in a spectacular action fuckup, which seriously impacted my life, and then threatened to sue me for 'defammation' when i discussed it? Not entirely sure i'm a fan of whatever she think solidarity is.

Spelt like that? I doubt there's two of em. (in this country anyway)

 

[Thunderfist]

Actually, you've been banned three times already so let's go for a straight four in a row.

EDL?

 

[Thunderfist]

Not sure what 'humanitarian work in Calais' involves given that there isn't humanitarian crisis there that I am aware of.

But the questions I was seeking an answer on:

1. What did those involved in the jaunt think they were going to achieve?
2. How do they think the stunt was perceived outside of their bubble?

still haven't been answered.

I know you aren't a spokesman for those involved but as you know some of them and your suggestion is that they are serious about their politics so I am genuinely interested to know what they thought would be achieved by hounding Farage and his family out of a pub.

I'm kind of surprised that you haven't heard anything about the situation in Calais. Calais effectively acts as a chokepoint for migrants trying to make their way to the UK. They live in shanty towns and squats that are regularly demolished/evicted by the police and exist hand to mouth waiting for their chance to cross the border. They are cold and hungry - in the winter some die of hypothermia. Police brutality is a constant fact of life.Some UK and french activists under the No Borders banner have established a slightly ramshackle humanitarian aid project that hands out food and clothes and monitors police activity. https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/

For answers to points 1 and 2 you'd really have to take Ewa's word for it (as you point out I'm not a spokesman) or interview them yourself.

 

[intersol32]

Outside the odd wedding you're unlikley to see anyone doing it (or the Okie-Cokie).

"The social background of those behind it , while contributory perhaps to its adoption as a method, is largely irrelevant as regards to its usefulness as a method " - Absolutley correct, and yet virtually everyone has made an issue of their supposed class background (which as I have said in two cases that I know of is off the mark).

Being on this forum is sometimes like watching a piss-poor police procedural - whatever the issue the villain is identical. What's stopping our revolution? Is it the police, the oligarchy, the judiciary, the media barons, the bankers or the aristocracy? No - it's those fucking middle class students with their 'identity politics'.

I've known a handful of middle class anti-fascists over the years and I'd never discount their contribution. Mainly because the task at hand combined actions that had a solid analysis and outcome that we all agreed with (although they would've certainly been critical of the Farage protest too).

We could carp on about how the issue of 'identity politics' in campaigns and how that has indeed been the result of the 'student' left bringing with them a focus that either shifts away from class based politics or is a mis-reading of it - but that point was made perhaps a dozen posts ago.

It is a pity that the people you know from the action are not on here to involve themselves in the discussion, as I can understand the frustration you must be going through in attempting to 'translate' what their thoughts were on the matter. Which is perhaps why you come across in your posts as being on the defensive all the time.

At the end of the day you know where I stand. As a footnote to that I think what's been needed for the past two decades on the left is a serious and honest re-appraisal of where it's going and who it truly represents. It has to break out of the confines that it so consistently creates for itself if it wants to connect with the Working Class.

Playing to its own narrow constituency of leftist activists, with only a nod to what they 'think' the Working Class will appreciate as its own concern, simply isn't enough. You have to be far more ambitious than that.

If that doesn't happen, then it will persistently give those communities over to the most reactionary elements whilst being shunned as political outsiders.

 

[Thunderfist]

Be critical of the Farage protest by all means, everyone's got an opinion. However sneering about the supposed class background of people involved does not a critique make, that's the point I've been making (here and on the Clapton thread). Opposing identity politics with another form of identity politics is a dead end

"At the end of the day you know where I stand. As a footnote to that I think what's been needed for the past two decades on the left is a serious and honest re-appraisal of where it's going and who it truly represents. It has to break out of the confines that it so consistently creates for itself if it wants to connect with the Working Class."

Looking around the forum I can see that there's a thread dedicated to the IWCA (I'm making the presumption that's where you're coming from) and what happened. I'm interested in reading a serious analysis of what went right and wrong with that approach. If the answer is that everything went right (and according to the masterplan) but it was de-railed because of some lefty students it'll be difficult to take seriously.

 

[Citizen66]

Working class isn't an identity ffs.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Why is this? Probably because most of the working class as fuck posters on here have in fact been through some form of further education and don't work in manual trades. It's a pretty natural human tendency to define yourself against what's immediately next to you and it's in full flower here.

'We're all middle class now'?

 

[Thunderfist]

Working class isn't an identity ffs.

No - the actual status of having to sell your labour power for the means of subsistence isn't an identity, but the outward signifiers of PFWC* culture have been throroughly commodified and are regularly regurgitated on here.

* Only came across this on the Clapton thread but I like it.

 

[Thunderfist]

'We're all middle class now'?

No - but there's not as sharp a defining line as some make out.

 

[chilango]

Perhaps before embarking on yet another "class" oddessy it might be worth reflecting on why people serious about social change ("revolution") place the w/c in a central role, and then seeing how this applies here and now.