EDL watch

[cesare]

I apologise there've been a lot of slanders against people on Saturday so I jumped to retread an argument with someone else and didn't consider when the communique was sent.

In general, we can see that only a minority of mosques in Britain support gay marriage and the rights of say teenagers to express their homosexuality publicly Lewisham one is part of the wider reality.

However I think we also need some nuance in our criticism of UAF and SLAF too, their support - if we can call it that - was for one day only, not great but not something systematic unlike for instance RESPECT.

If you look at the timeline on the facebook event that SLAF communique was issued after the joint meeting at the IC when all this had been discussed: https://www.facebook.com/events/188514991305187/

 

[nutnut]

The same leaflets? Or is it just that they were on the same street?

Different leaflets (same agenda?).

(Piss poor EDL turnout in Romford Market on Saturday).

 

[SpineyNorman]

I think you may be crediting the CofE's official hierarchy and officialdom (as opposed to congregations and local vicars etc), with rather more backbone than is perhaps justified...

It's not about backbone any more than Clegg investigating that sex case is about backbone - quite the opposite.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Different leaflets (same agenda?).

(Piss poor EDL turnout in Romford Market on Saturday).

Other than them holding stalls next to each other what other evidence is there of collusion (sorry if it feels like I'm grilling you - I'm not having a go or anything, just trying to get my head around what's going off).

 

[Corax]

Different leaflets (same agenda?).

(Piss poor EDL turnout in Romford Market on Saturday).

So you think they were cosying up with the BNP purely because they were both leafleting (with different leaflets) on the same high street?

Sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult or owt - I'm just not sure where you're coming from. You mention the 'same agenda' - what was the content of their respective leaflets? Were they both stirring islamophobia or something?

 

[sihhi]

I am confused by all the times and changes to be honest.

The question of what to when the BNP does come to an area and demand deportation of 'hate preachers' (which other people nevertheless see as part of their place of worship) - is still an open one.

If we defend the right of preachers to stay we're in danger of assisting homophobia etc.
If we say 'go fight yourselves', it's likely that the BNP argument will win and the axe can swing to step up immigration checks and deportation of eg workers on permits or visas who take part in unauthorised strikes and are seen as 'militants'.

There seems no good answer.

 

[nutnut]

I am all for same-sex marriages so all people have the same rights in law. But why would anybody go near a fucking church to get married?

 

[frogwoman]

Nice one
the place ive been talking about and i was a regular at throughout my teens organises trips to israel for teenagers, there are israeli flags on a billboard by the door etc. when the latest israeli attack happened in december they sent an email to all members telling them of what the israeli ambassor had said (although the rabbi then put an opposing view in his email and then sent another one out judging by some of the replies that he was probably anticipating getting). one of the things that made me stop going for a long time was the fact that in one children's service I went to, I saw them teach kids of pre school age about how great israel is as a country, and make them do puzzles about it in the service, i was pretty disgusted when i saw that and didnt go for ages and ages after that. ive heard people in the congregation say dodgy things, mostly zionism/israel related, but also the odd dodgy thing about gays, although i think they support gay marriage quite openly. its not a requirement of joining to be a zionist or anything but i think people with even my views would be in a bit of a minority (although increasingly not that much of one)

that doesnt mean i would be happy about say the edl or some conspiraloons group marching around there unopposed though, in fact i'd be fucking livid about it, especially if people didnt want to oppose the march and the reason given was "zionists palestine blah blah blah" i would be bitching about on here for fucking weeks

Id imagine people who grew up catholic and going to catholic churches and there was some orange/loyalist/fash parade in the area and then people were like "yeah but dont oppose it coz of the pope/child abuse/condoms" would equally piss people off wouldnt it?

i imagine there are some similarly unsavoury views in the local mosque and i know a lot of local churches have odd/dodgy views on abortion etc. im not familiar with this particular case so i might be talking shite but allowing the edl to march opposed somewhere or at least not organising any oppo to it because of the people organising the centre having dodgy views it might end up pissing people off that are nothing to do with it. Unless I am wrong and they really are a bunch of hardcore islamists but from what cesare said it didn't seem like it did If they were hardcore Islamists then fair enough, fuck em and feel free to ignore this post, but from what people are saying seems like just a community centre/mosque.

 

[Corax]

I am confused by all the times and changes to be honest.

The question of what to when the BNP does come to an area and demand deportation of 'hate preachers' (which other people nevertheless see as part of their place of worship) - is still an open one.

If we defend the right of preachers to stay we're in danger of assisting homophobia etc.
If we say 'go fight yourselves', it's likely that the BNP argument will win and the axe can swing to step up immigration checks and deportation of eg workers on permits or visas who take part in unauthorised strikes and are seen as 'militants'.

There seems no good answer.

Hard to make a catchy banner or chant to sum it up I guess.

What do we want? Not to condone the extremist preachers but neither are we going to let far-right extremists use them as an excuse for their thinly-veiled racism and xenophobia! When do we want it? etc...

 

[J Ed]

i imagine there are some similarly unsavoury views in the local mosque and i know a lot of local churches have odd/dodgy views on abortion etc. im not familiar with this particular case so i might be talking shite but allowing the edl to march opposed somewhere or at least not organising any oppo to it because of the people organising the centre having dodgy views it might end up pissing people off that are nothing to do with it. Unless I am wrong and they really are a bunch of hardcore islamists but from what cesare said it didn't seem like it did If they were hardcore Islamists then fair enough, fuck em and feel free to ignore this post, but from what people are saying seems like just a community centre/mosque.

I think that you're absolutely right, and that was more or less what I was trying to explain to several people today. Even if you think there's a problem, and there may well be, there's a time and a place to confront that problem and that time and place is not when a group of violent racists is trying to target people because they are Muslim or look Muslim.

I think the Orange Order is a good analogy. The Catholic Church has a serious case to answer on an array of different issues, practicing and ex-Catholics think that more than anyone really, but you're not going to line up with the UVF because you're angry about Catholic policy on gay marriage, paedophilia or condoms.

 

[frogwoman]

yeah that would make absolutely no sense

 

[cesare]

I am confused by all the times and changes to be honest.

The question of what to when the BNP does come to an area and demand deportation of 'hate preachers' (which other people nevertheless see as part of their place of worship) - is still an open one.

If we defend the right of preachers to stay we're in danger of assisting homophobia etc.
If we say 'go fight yourselves', it's likely that the BNP argument will win and the axe can swing to step up immigration checks and deportation of eg workers on permits or visas who take part in unauthorised strikes and are seen as 'militants'.

There seems no good answer.

I'm possibly clearer about the times and changes because I've been watching it more closely, for various reasons. But to your "hate preachers" point - I don't interpret the anti-fascist actions as defending the rights of hate preachers (however the BNP define "hate"). I interpret the anti-fa actions as defending a section of the local community under attack from a far right group. As it happens, the Met intervened to divert the BNP actions.

 

[sihhi]

Nice one
the place ive been talking about and i was a regular at throughout my teens organises trips to israel for teenagers, there are israeli flags on a billboard by the door etc. when the latest israeli attack happened in december they sent an email to all members telling them of what the israeli ambassor had said (although the rabbi then put an opposing view in his email and then sent another one out judging by some of the replies that he was probably anticipating getting). one of the things that made me stop going for a long time was the fact that they teach kids of pre school age about how great israel is as a country, and make them do puzzles about it in the service, i was pretty disgusted when i saw that and didnt go for ages and ages after that. ive heard people say dodgy things, mostly zionism/israel related, but also the odd dodgy thing about gays, although i think they support gay marriage quite openly. its not a requirement of joining to be a zionist or anything but i think people with even my views would be in a bit of a minority (although increasingly not that much of one)

that doesnt mean i would be happy about say the edl or some conspiraloons group marching around there unopposed though, in fact i'd be fucking livid about it, especially if people didnt want to oppose the march and the reason given was "zionists palestine blah blah blah"

Many people from small minority communities experience exactly the same thing ...
gurdwara schools explaining that the Indian state is perpetuating ongoing genocide against Sikhs, Turkish schools that explain there is a British-Greek conspiracy against the country, Muslim schools that say Muslims who give up the faith should be treated as outsiders and shunned as god intends from passages in the koran, Albanian schools that explain that all of Kosova belongs in Albania and there is a conspiracy to tar the Albanian state as discriminatory.

At the same time, mainstream culture can also normalise militarist honour (by leaving out all aspects of function/purpose/reality) in the very young by games and fun. Classes of primary school children are awarded tickets to a British Military Tattoo featuring returning Iraq and Afghan soldiers as pride of place marching up the sides. Thus allowing any attempt at questioning the content to be forced back onto territory like 'and what about you? at least we don't invade other countries we just defend our own'

So it's hard to organise proper opposition to these things in minority parts of the country without attention.

 

[J Ed]

So it's hard to organise proper opposition to these things in minority parts of the country without attention.

It's only going to get worse with the growth of faith schools and free schools too. Another wonderful legacy of Tony Blair.

 

[nutnut]

So you think they were cosying up with the BNP purely because they were both leafleting (with different leaflets) on the same high street?

Sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult or owt - I'm just not sure where you're coming from. You mention the 'same agenda' - what was the content of their respective leaflets? Were they both stirring islamophobia or something?

OK - The BNP hold a 'food bank' stall, targeting mainly the elderly.

At the same time there is a new 'street church' movement handing out leaflets and praying for people.

These two groups are seperated by about 20 feet. Lots of laughter and chat between them.

I must stress this is in my local shopping area, and may not be the norm elsewhere.

Am keeping an eye on further developements.

 

[frogwoman]

Many people from small minority communities experience exactly the same thing ...
gurdwara schools explaining that the Indian state is perpetuating ongoing genocide against Sikhs, Turkish schools that explain there is a British-Greek conspiracy against the country, Muslim schools that say Muslims who give up the faith should be treated as outsiders and shunned as god intends from passages in the koran, Albanian schools that explain that all of Kosova belongs in Albania and there is a conspiracy to tar the Albanian state as discriminatory.

At the same time, mainstream culture can also normalise militarist honour (by leaving out all aspects of function/purpose/reality) in the very young by games and fun. Classes of primary school children are awarded tickets to a British Military Tattoo featuring returning Iraq and Afghan soldiers as pride of place marching up the sides. Thus allowing any attempt at questioning the content to be forced back onto territory like 'and what about you? at least we don't invade other countries we just defend our own'

So it's hard to organise proper opposition to these things in minority parts of the country without attention.

yeah, to be fair, this (the childrens service thing) was ages ago, like in 2009 or so and i think things might have significantly changed since then (although not everywhere), i think i could quite comfortably say most of what i think about israel, zionism, and palestine to many people there and not get that much stick for it, I think cast lead and its aftermath was a bit of a turning point for a lot of people. i was a bit of an "angry atheist" in those days though lol so perhaps im remembering it as worse than it was, but it was pretty bad.

you're right though. It's hard to oppose this stuff, but then again if a group of violent racists wanted to organise some sort of march there still has to be some sort of opposition to it. I mean if they're extremist islamists/zionists/whatever then yeah fuck them but a lot of people have "soft" support of those sort of views, and I dont think not organising any oppo to that sort of event is going to help, a lot of people adopt those sort of views because they feel under attack and they want "defence".

 

[sihhi]

I understand your point cesare but I also see Nice One's about the tone of some it from SLAF stuff

In Woolwich, we thank activists from the Movement for Justice who kept an eye on the local Islamic Centre and spoke with young black people about the current situation. In Lewisham, various antifascists from the local Trade Union Council, Newham Monitoring Project, and other people from the local community came together to support Lewisham Islamic Centre. The Centre in response held a meal for all who attended on the day.

I can't properly understand their conclusions here - what imperial roots are they talking about?

Our movement has many challenges ahead, we are too white and disconnected from the migrant communities and activists that are directly affected by Islamophobia, xenophobia and racism. Racism, sexism and fascism doesn’t just appear in fascist marches and pitch battles against the police. It happens in the workplace, in the national newspapers, during stop-and-searches, through local councils and the corridors of power in Westminster. Popular racism is endemic in British institutions and mainstream culture. In response to this, we as antifascists must develop a genuine diversity of tactics and a coherent strategy to pull racist ideologies and power structures up from its imperial roots in the British state. Our autonomous struggle is against police brutality, the murder of migrants labelled “asylum seekers”, the countless deaths in custody, the demonisation of Romanians and Bulgarians, and against the inability to leave your home because of the fear of being attacked for being different.

If you just want to defeat the BNP, UKIP, EDL - fine - but you need attack where they are weak, on their (potential) divisions - ie class-based resistance that reaches right into their heartlands, doesn't stay at the confines of calling for a left vote for UNITE leadership, condemning imperial roots and

If we have to mention them by name then attack on class or wealth lines (the aim is to create a white working-class breakaway by pressure and whole-working-class organisation):- why Griffin has a massive farmhouse in Wales to speak for poor white people; where the UKIP money comes from who drives the policy; for what reason the EDL calls for a UKIP vote and warns 'leaders must start addressing the consequences of their policy of unrestricted immigration or there is a very real danger that they will face the “backlash” we all fear.'

 

[Corax]

OK - The BNP hold a 'food bank' stall, targeting mainly the elderly.

At the same time there is a new 'street church' movement handing out leaflets and praying for people.

These two groups are seperated by about 20 feet. Lots of laughter and chat between them.

I must stress this is in my local shopping area, and may not be the norm elsewhere.

Okay, I think I've got a better mental picture of what gave you concern now - ta.

Am keeping an eye on further developements.

Aye, do. If it turns out they're actually collaborating in some way (or if they do as things develop), there may be something that can be done about it.

 

[sihhi]

It's only going to get worse with the growth of faith schools and free schools too. Another wonderful legacy of Tony Blair.

Well if you look at Lewisham Islamic Centre's website you can see its Muslim primary school on Lewisham High Street:-

We are an inclusive Muslim faith school that welcomes children from all
backgrounds and abilities.
2.2 All applications will be treated on merit and in a sensitive manner.
2.3 If at any time there are more children seeking admission than there are appropriate
year group places available the following priorities will apply:
• Children who are ‘Looked After’*;
• Children whose families worship at, and are active in the life of Lewisham
Islamic Centre
• Children of other Muslim families with a sibling at the school on the date of
admission;
• Children of other Muslim families living nearest to the school

It's very soft not going to be like a weekend mosque school that says all ex-Muslims need to be reminded of their sin, but it will be almost wholly Muslim, why would anyone non-Muslim pay to send their kid there?
The inter-communal group bonds will have to be formed outside of school, which the Islamic Centre will no doubt take the credit for by having a festival days and meal once a year at Eid for outside non-Muslim people.
(I'd say do go to these kinds of events though even if does feel like 'giving support' if only to engage in non-threatening but direct questions to tease out their faith school nonsense, perhaps by pointing out the more faith schools there are the better private schools have an excuse to exist)

 

[cesare]

sihhi I don't know much about them beyond what was co-ordinated on Saturday (I can't bring up your linked Wordpress site at the moment, I don't know why - perhaps it's busy). I was answering the criticisms at face value and in the context of the days leading up to Saturday which is set out in more detail on the other thread. As far as Saturday is concerned, whilst I appreciate that there are various criticisms, overall I think the response was effective and proportionate.

In terms of a wider criticism of the SLAF group, I'm not really in a position yet to comment properly although I don't like "imperial" and "imperialism" because it sets my antennae twitching ie what do they mean by that, exactly.

 

[SpineyNorman]

OK - The BNP hold a 'food bank' stall, targeting mainly the elderly.

At the same time there is a new 'street church' movement handing out leaflets and praying for people.

These two groups are seperated by about 20 feet. Lots of laughter and chat between them.

I must stress this is in my local shopping area, and may not be the norm elsewhere.

Am keeping an eye on further developements.

Are the BNP holding stalls unopposed then? Foodbank stuff is worrying IMO - learning from the Golden Dawn? And I guess it means any opposition has to be a bit more sophisticated than usual.

 

[frogwoman]

OK - The BNP hold a 'food bank' stall, targeting mainly the elderly.

At the same time there is a new 'street church' movement handing out leaflets and praying for people.

These two groups are seperated by about 20 feet. Lots of laughter and chat between them.

I must stress this is in my local shopping area, and may not be the norm elsewhere.

Am keeping an eye on further developements.

I would take some of the "street church"'s literature next time you see them. Obviously make sure there is no risk to yourself when doing so or anything! but i've seen some weird "church" type groups in the street recently where I work, very fundamentalist, protesting against atheism and homosexuality, more like a Westboro baptist church type outfit almost than something you'd get in the UK.

 

[SpineyNorman]

(I'd say do go to these kinds of events though even if does feel like 'giving support' if only to engage in non-threatening but direct questions to tease out their faith school nonsense, perhaps by pointing out the more faith schools there are the better private schools have an excuse to exist)

And also to take advantage of the free grub

 

[J Ed]

OK - The BNP hold a 'food bank' stall, targeting mainly the elderly.

At the same time there is a new 'street church' movement handing out leaflets and praying for people.

These two groups are seperated by about 20 feet. Lots of laughter and chat between them.

I must stress this is in my local shopping area, and may not be the norm elsewhere.

Am keeping an eye on further developements.

How long has the foodbank thing been going on for?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Well if you look at Lewisham Islamic Centre's website you can see its Muslim primary school on Lewisham High Street:-

It's very soft not going to be like a weekend mosque school that says all ex-Muslims need to be reminded of their sin, but it will be almost wholly Muslim, why would anyone non-Muslim pay to send their kid there?
The inter-communal group bonds will have to be formed outside of school, which the Islamic Centre will no doubt take the credit for by having a festival days and meal once a year at Eid for outside non-Muslim people.
(I'd say do go to these kinds of events though even if does feel like 'giving support' if only to engage in non-threatening but direct questions to tease out their faith school nonsense, perhaps by pointing out the more faith schools there are the better private schools have an excuse to exist)

Deeply worrying some of this stuff. Not just in regards to Muslim schools in particular but all religious education. In my part of the world there's a few campaigns being run to try and introduce an Islamic girls school in Dewsbury along these sorts of lines, which would make an already segregated community even more segregated. Lot more I could go into here but it's not the right thread for it.

 

[J Ed]

Le Front National have been doing it for a while, even pre-crisis, but I haven't heard of it happening here

 

[SpineyNorman]

Le Front National have been doing it for a while, even pre-crisis, but I haven't heard of it happening here

Me neither. Does anyone know of any antifascist groups or anything like that in the area? Might be a good idea to put nutnut in touch with them. This could potentially be very fruitful for them so it's best people start working out how to tackle it now rather than when they've won the support of loads of people by providing food.

This also goes to show how important it is that the left starts sorting its act out on this stuff too. It's too important to just leave it.

 

[cesare]

Our food bank in Tower Hamlets is run by a very odd charity.

http://www.towerhamletsfoodbank.org.uk/

http://www.thelovefoundation.com/

 

[frogwoman]

Our food bank in Tower Hamlets is run by a very odd charity.

http://www.towerhamletsfoodbank.org.uk/

http://www.thelovefoundation.com/

awesome

 

[cesare]

awesome

That might be the wrong charity

*further googling*