cesare
shady's dreams ♥
D'ya think they ought to only support the atheist w/cDo anarchists support CofE as well then?
EDL watch
- Thread starter Das Uberdog
- Start date
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Well yes. I imagine that forms part of the discussion. But it's unlikely (in areas such as Lewisham and Woolwich) to take precedence over class struggle, solidarity and support.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Yes. However, fortunately Saturday's actions didn't seem to be designed for any such bolstering. Also, this was anti-fascist action carried out by a number of people including (or even primarily) anarchists, rather than day to day anarchism work.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i don't think religious establishments are hotbeds of class struggle lol.
although they do provide a community, they do do things like put on cultural events and education for people who often havent had that much exposure to things like that, they also have events that are nothing to do with religion like walks, playing cards, showing films, (about something related to religion usually though lol) they also do stuff like help people out financially or go and visit old people in their homes, do shopping etc, the synagogue has some people that do a councelling service and i imagine a lot of churches and mosques do too.
round here the churches mosques, synagogues and i imagine other religions like hindus and sikhs all do food banks (and for the local synagogue i know fr a fact its not just for members of that religion either) and help out the homeless and often help at each others events.
there's not always that much wrong with it, especially when different religions are doing it all jointly, although it shouldn't be left to religious leaders etc to organise and take control of and impose the agenda of their religion (whatever it is) onto it. It is a bit crap though that it's all down to religious organisations who often have reactionary politics in one way or another, or at best they defo aren't really going to encourage the politics of class struggle lol. and of course you have to be involved in those "networks" (and most people aren't) to be able to have access to it, or at least know someone who is. most people arent regular church goers or whatever.
im probably talking bollocks, im a bit confused about this myself
although they do provide a community, they do do things like put on cultural events and education for people who often havent had that much exposure to things like that, they also have events that are nothing to do with religion like walks, playing cards, showing films, (about something related to religion usually though lol) they also do stuff like help people out financially or go and visit old people in their homes, do shopping etc, the synagogue has some people that do a councelling service and i imagine a lot of churches and mosques do too.
round here the churches mosques, synagogues and i imagine other religions like hindus and sikhs all do food banks (and for the local synagogue i know fr a fact its not just for members of that religion either) and help out the homeless and often help at each others events.
there's not always that much wrong with it, especially when different religions are doing it all jointly, although it shouldn't be left to religious leaders etc to organise and take control of and impose the agenda of their religion (whatever it is) onto it. It is a bit crap though that it's all down to religious organisations who often have reactionary politics in one way or another, or at best they defo aren't really going to encourage the politics of class struggle lol
. and of course you have to be involved in those "networks" (and most people aren't) to be able to have access to it, or at least know someone who is. most people arent regular church goers or whatever.im probably talking bollocks, im a bit confused about this myself
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Plus many w/c communities of this type have many varied people from a variety of different heritages and nationalities, and the religious aspect is woven within all that. Difficult to disentangle. But as far as class struggle is concerned, anything that makes the lives of w/c people harder is something that should be resisted. I didn't mean to imply that this community centre was a hotbed of class struggle - more that it's one aspect of an overall community where class struggle is day to day existence, and they are part of that, not separate by virtue of their religion.
Corax
Luke 5:16
Sometimes. But there are also CofE churches who's congregations do a hell of a lot to support their communities (debt management courses, CV writing and employment coaching, soup kitchens etc) - open to all faiths, sexualities, etc and not always even flagged as a 'church' effort, let alone evangelical or preachy.
Problem is that people never associate those ones with churches, precisely because they don't shout about the connection - they just get on with it because they think it's the right thing to do - so what people remember 'the church' doing is only the ones that use these courses and stuff as a way of proselytising people.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
what is?
Here's the uncritical support i was refering to.
South London AF
@SouthLondonAF
SPREAD THE WORD - We are working with Lewisham Islamic Centre to stop the#BNP from getting to#Lewisham
https://twitter.com/SouthLondonAF/status/339756123001323521
which reinforced "We will be primarily supporting the Lewisham Islamic Centre rally".
The last sentence (which you purposefully chopped halfway through the middle) is from the general point:
http://www.tmponline.org/2013/05/30/slaf-diversity-woolwich
They're saying for the reasons they've given, they're Lewisham people they are staying in Lewisham, people from north or west london can go to the Whitehall protest.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
cesare
I think for a lot of especially older people having the support of the community is a bit of a lifeline. There are a lot of old people who go to the local shul which ive been going to on and off (mostly off tbh) for years who probably wouldnt get out much at all, dont have any family in the area, quite alot of of them are disabled, some of them escaped during the war etc and a lot of them would not have any social support were it not for the people they know there, and it's not even necessarily about religion. I know it's the same at Churches as well, they are full of old people and i'd imagine it is in mosques as well. I have my own issues with it but I think that unless they are deliberately exclusionary/preaching hate etc then i dont think there's all that much wrong. I also think that there's a difference between the religious side and the social side and many people just go to these things for the social side.
I think this type of stuff is the sort of stuff that "the left" for want of a better word used to be a lot better at, I know they are a lot better in places like Italy for it, chilango, Fedayn etc probably know more about that than I do!
I think for a lot of especially older people having the support of the community is a bit of a lifeline. There are a lot of old people who go to the local shul which ive been going to on and off (mostly off tbh
) for years who probably wouldnt get out much at all, dont have any family in the area, quite alot of of them are disabled, some of them escaped during the war etc and a lot of them would not have any social support were it not for the people they know there, and it's not even necessarily about religion. I know it's the same at Churches as well, they are full of old people and i'd imagine it is in mosques as well. I have my own issues with it but I think that unless they are deliberately exclusionary/preaching hate etc then i dont think there's all that much wrong. I also think that there's a difference between the religious side and the social side and many people just go to these things for the social side.I think this type of stuff is the sort of stuff that "the left" for want of a better word used to be a lot better at, I know they are a lot better in places like Italy for it, chilango, Fedayn etc probably know more about that than I do!
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
yep, and also churches/places of worship that hire out their halls to community groups.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I just had a thought regarding Islamist Terrorists. I might be completely wrong but I seem to remember that after the 7/7 bombings, it was discovered that Siddique Khan etc had actually left the local mosque they were going to because it wasn't "religious" (ie islamist) enough for them, and they were getting radicalised through speaking to each other and other people, i think concerns were expressed and then they had left. They had gone to a more religious one and then had eventually stopped going to that and ended up going to each others houses among small groups of Islamists who thought the same way they did. So rather than radicalising them the people at the mosque and that sort of "normal" religious environment, rather than one committed to Islamism and jihad, could have actually acted like a brake on their activities but they didn't want to listen to them. Obviously that might be a bit simplistic but i think it does show the importance of community based stuff to some extent.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
One of the positive steps in Italy in terms of 'support' has been the establishment of social centres over the past decades. That the far-right have cottoned on shows how well developed and useful they were/are. What you also have in Italy is a far more politicised priesthood, ranging from far-right to far-Left. As chilango will know a very famous former partisan and left-wing priest Don Gallo died recently. An almost legendary man who was a great example of the progressive element amongst the church...
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
cesare
I think for a lot of especially older people having the support of the community is a bit of a lifeline. There are a lot of old people who go to the local shul which ive been going to on and off (mostly off tbh
I think this type of stuff is the sort of stuff that "the left" for want of a better word used to be a lot better at, I know they are a lot better in places like Italy for it, chilango, Fedayn etc probably know more about that than I do!
Definitely the same at churches - my mum goes to the one in their village and usually takes my dad. They've had loads of support from there that nobody else would or could offer when by brother died and then when my mum got ill. My dad doesn't even believe in God but he still went yesterday even though she was in hospital and couldn't go - because of the social side of it.
The left once did this better than anyone. I know more about mining villages than anything else and anything people needed help with they went to the union - debts, help with forms, troubles with the neighbours - everything. The union and the workingmens club was the hub of the community and that's all gone now. Even where they still exist a lot of working mens clubs are basically just pubs these days.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Definitely and they're not necessarily community groups specific to that religion. All sorts of activities take place, from kid's birthday parties to computer classes.
Nice one
Well-Known Member
simply not true. That statement came out before the decision to move the demo to whitehall. They are saying people should chose which demo to go to - either woolwich or lewisham (both in south london). SLAF had chose lewisham. But again that isn't the point. The point is the role and purpose of south london anti-fascists is made clear - to support the Lewisham Islamic centre.
Which is absolutely fine, except lewisham islamic centre has got some pretty fucked up perspectives. This is from their official newsletter (granted published in 2010):
"Say you are in the mall or outside somewhere and you happen to see a homosexual “couple” kissing. Do you just walk past as though nothing happened? Absolutely not! Rather, turn your child’s face away as you too look away and show through your body language, facial expressions and words how disgusted you are by that sight. When the child sees this from you, he’ll grow up knowing this is filthy, unacceptable and deviant behaviour".
http://www.lewishamislamiccentre.com/downloads/As-Sahwah/2010-03.pdf
Also LIC imam Shakeel Begg (along with many other muslim leaders) recently spoke out against the marriage (same sex couples) bill:
"Muslim parents will be robbed of their right to raise their children according to their beliefs, as gay relationships are taught as something normal to their primary-aged children.
We support the numerous calls from other faith leaders and communities who have stood firmly against gay marriage and instead support marriage as it should be, between a man and a woman".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10065280/Muslim-leaders-stand-against-gay-marriage.html
SLAF narrative for the day was one of preventing divisions within communities. Now there needs to be some critical engagament here because the issues involved go beyond simply defending the mosque against the racist bnp. A more nuanced approach, especially from politically progressive radcials, would avoid supporting one reactionary bigoted institution over another.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
What area are you in? (If you don't mind me asking)
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Which churches and where? Sounds a bit unlikely if you ask me.
Edit: unless you mean church-goers rather than the churches themselves.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
ye theres a working men's club in my village and while it does have some community functions etc its basically just a pub.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
What would you suggest as an alternative? Allowing the EDL the freedom to attack it on the basis of some dodgy social/political views? Or something else?
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Is there much interaction between them? And do you know which denomination they are? (I'm asking because something could maybe be done about it if they're CofE or one of the other 'mainstream' denominations).
Ah sorry, missed where you said street churches - are they evangelical types?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
I apologise there've been a lot of slanders against people on Saturday so I jumped to retread an argument with someone else and didn't consider when the communique was sent.
In general, we can see that only a minority of mosques in Britain support gay marriage and the rights of say teenagers to express their homosexuality publicly Lewisham one is part of the wider reality.
However I think we also need some nuance in our criticism of UAF and SLAF too, their support - if we can call it that - was for one day only, not great but not something systematic unlike for instance RESPECT.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Worried about reprisals because one of the Woolwich Islamacists was from there? Or worried that there might be similar incidents there? Perhaps both, of course.
Corax
Luke 5:16
Depends very much on the church IMO.
One of the notable things about the CofE is how massively varied the churches are. There's those that verge on catholicism with high-church bells and incense, there's uber happy-clappy evangelicals, there's those that smell of right wing bigotry that give sermons about homosexuals all going to hell, and there's those that are inclusive to all and devote their time and cash to the 'mission' stuff that I described earlier without making a fuss about it. I'm a regular at one of the latter, but despite technically being the same denomination I wouldn't be at all comfortable attending those in the first two categories, and if I pitched up at one in the third I'd probably end up getting in a very unChristian fist-fight...
Corax
Luke 5:16
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Depends very much on the church IMO.
One of the notable things about the CofE is how massively varied the churches are. There's those that verge on catholicism with high-church bells and incense, there's uber happy-clappy evangelicals, there's those that smell of right wing bigotry that give sermons about homosexuals all going to hell, and there's those that are inclusive to all and devote their time and cash to the 'mission' stuff that I described earlier without making a fuss about it. I'm a regular at one of the latter, but despite technically being the same denomination I wouldn't be at all comfortable attending those in the first two categories, and if I pitched up at one in the third I'd probably end up getting in a very unChristian fist-fight...
Yeah - they're a bit like Lib Dems - tailor their views to fit with their target audience. But I think even if it was the right wing ones doing it the higher ups would have something to say if they found out about this. They might tolerate them saying the same stuff as the BNP but it's too damaging for their reputation to have them actively cooperating with them.
Corax
Luke 5:16
I think you may be crediting the CofE's official hierarchy and officialdom (as opposed to congregations and local vicars etc), with rather more backbone than is perhaps justified...
Similar threads
