EDL watch

[SpineyNorman]

Glad to hear it. All I've got to go on are his/her constant and often baseless attacks on any group opposing the EDL and kin.

I think an apology is in order, don't you?

 

[treelover]

Btw, this debate about the flags are going on on lots of fora U.k wide, and yes, those who are critical are called 'racists, edl, etc some clearly are, but many are just baffled as to why such flags were flown without major criticism.

 

[J Ed]

Btw, this debate about the flags are going on on lots of fora U.k wide, and yes, those who are critical are called 'racists, edl, etc some clearly are, but many are just baffled as to why such flags were flown without major criticism.

That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the pic after you mentioning it here. It just looks awful to absolutely everyone including the vast majority of Muslims.

 

[treelover]

I think an apology is in order, don't you?

I don't need one, if it wasn't for the appalling attacks on vulnerable people, I would be finished with left politics, too confrontational and with a hierarchy of oppression.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't think that the from the river to the sea chant is nearly as bad since (most? some of?) the people saying it envisage a situation where a one state solution would also include the Jewish population of historic Palestine in a secular/plural state.

Some (I hope most) of the people saying it do. But I think it would be naive, given the people we know to attend those demos, to think they all did.

I used to be a convinced advocate of the one state solution, mainly because I don't like the idea of two states founded on either religious or ethno-linguistic grounds (why have two states otherwise?), I think it would require ethnic cleansing to implement, would (I'm thinking of Michael Mann's arguments in The Dark Side of Democracy) institutionalise religious conflict, and is becoming increasingly difficult to envisage it even being a possibility given the expansion of Israeli settlements. But more recently I've come to see very similar problems in a single state.

I'm fast coming to the conclusion that someone like me, with no direct stake, should keep their fucking nose out and stick to doing what little I can in assisting labour struggles on both sides of the divide. I see both solutions as being frought with extreme danger to those directly affected and as such cannot in good conscience 'support' either. And in my less optimistic moods I tend to think that the no state solution might be the only one - full communism is the way to go

 

[Corax]

I think an apology is in order, don't you?

No, not really. I'll happily (literally) concede that I'm wrong as so many are willing to vouch that it's untrue, but treelover's posts built up that impression in my mind and there's no point in pretending otherwise.

I do retract it however.

 

[treelover]

semantics, lol...

 

[frogwoman]

also, treelover may be a bit annoying at times but i know i can be as well. he's definitely not fash ffs.

 

[SpineyNorman]

No, not really. I'll happily (literally) concede that I'm wrong as so many are willing to vouch that it's untrue, but treelover's posts built up that impression in my mind and there's no point in pretending otherwise.

I do retract it however.

You called an anti-fascist a fascist and you're not sorry that you did so? Regardless of the reasons why I got it so badly wrong, I'd certainly be sorry if I'd done that.

But if that's the case then fair enough. It really doesn't reflect well on you.

 

[Corax]

semantics, lol...

I don't think so. If I'd called you a "fash cunt" or similar then I'd be apologising, but that's not what I said - thankfully.

also, treelover may be a bit annoying at times but i know i can be as well. he's definitely not fash ffs.

Good. By your reaction and that of others, and also treelover's own personal outrage, I was obviously way off mark. All I've seen is the unceasing criticism of anything done to oppose the EDL, but I'm happy to accept that's given a false impression.

 

[belboid]

belboid is treelover not right when he says that it was there for the duration of the demo? I'm talking to one of my friends who was there and she says it was

People shouldn't have to choose betweeen opposing the EDL but standing with people who hold Salafist flags and not doing anything.

he was asked to leave the front of the demo, and he did. I'm sure he kept hold of his flag, but why wouldn't he?

Got to admit I wouldn't know the difference between a salafist or Islamist flag and a perfectly normal and acceptable Islamic one (that might say peace or summat on it).

indeed, and it is the absolute fact that treelover had absolutely no idea about what the flag had on it that makes his comment (so bold and brave a mere 24 hours later, on the internet) so irritating. he just didn't like the look of the bloke holding it.

 

[belboid]

Btw, this debate about the flags are going on on lots of fora U.k wide, and yes, those who are critical are called 'racists, edl, etc some clearly are, but many are just baffled as to why such flags were flown without major criticism.

links? cos i suspect this is yet another thing you are making up. something you have a habit of doing

 

[treelover]

indeed, and it is the absolute fact that treelover had absolutely no idea about what the flag had on it that makes his comment (so bold and brave a mere 24 hours later, on the internet) so irritating. he just didn't like the look of the bloke holding it.

oh dear, now I appear to be accused of racism, is that correct belboid?

 

[Corax]

You called an anti-fascist a fascist and you're not sorry that you did so? Regardless of the reasons why I got it so badly wrong, I'd certainly be sorry if I'd done that.

But if that's the case then fair enough. It really doesn't reflect well on you.

An apology would be disingenuous IMO. What I posted wasn't a fit of pique or a personal attack, it was the effect of treelover's posts on this thread.

 

[treelover]

An apology would be disingenuous IMO. What I posted wasn't a fit of pique or a personal attack, it was the effect of treelover's posts on this thread.

Actually, its not just this thread, historically when someone has started a thread, not very frequently, on Islamic fundamentalism on here, they are also regularly accused of the above.

 

[SpineyNorman]

An apology would be disingenuous IMO. What I posted wasn't a fit of pique or a personal attack, it was the effect of treelover's posts on this thread.

It wasn't just his comments on this thread though was it? You had some input too - and obviously so. Otherwise you wouldn't have been the only one making the accusation. You interpreted them (wrongly) and then made a (completely unfounded) accusation. Your attempts to paint it as all treelover's work, and yourself as a mere passive channel through which the mysterious force of treelover's posts articulated itself, look a bit desperate.

This is my last comment on the subject.

 

[J Ed]

oh dear, now I appear to be accused of racism, is that correct belboid?

Must be a bizarre very selective racism since you obviously had no problem with an array of other people!

 

[treelover]

This is my last comment on the subject.

yes, mine is I don't really have an interest in the EDL, I think UKIP are ultimately much more of a threat to working class people, of any colour or creed...

 

[J Ed]

yes, mine is I don't really have an interest in the EDL, I think UKIP are ultimately much more of a threat to working class people, of any colour or creed...

IMO they aren't separate threats. There is a LOT of crossover in terms of both membership and views, and they have collaborated together on anti-immigration demos in Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire.

A lot of EDL vote UKIP too.

It's not impossible to imagine the EDL being used, the same way as Golden Dawn have been used in Greece, in a SHTF scenario in the UK. In fact I think their right-wing populism and ostensible anti-fascism means that the state would see them as being perfect for the task.

 

[Corax]

Actually, its not just this thread, historically when someone has started a thread, not very frequently, on Islamic fundamentalism on here, they are also regularly accused of the above.

Wouldn't that depend on the poster?

If a newly registered poster started a thread on it, then tbh I'd be a bit suspicious of their motives.

If an established poster did so, then unless it had a particularly unique angle then it would just be puzzling - I think some things can be taken as read on here, and one of them is that no one's a big fan of islamic extremists. A generic discussion thread on whether islamic fundamentalism was a bad thing would just have a few hundred replies reading "yeah".

 

[Corax]

This is my last comment on the subject.

Fab. I collect last words.

 

[treelover]

A lot of EDL vote UKIP too.

It's not impossible to imagine the EDL being used, the same way as Golden Dawn have been used in Greece, in a SHTF scenario in the UK. In fact I think their right-wing populism and ostensible anti-fascism means that the state would see them as being perfect for the task.

yeah, you are right on this, must be terrifying to be an immigrant right now in Greece, trade unionist, leftist, etc.

 

[J Ed]

Has anyone been following the developments on this page https://www.facebook.com/pages/RIP-Lee-Rigby/144840292366142?hc_location=stream ?

It's obviously ran as a front by the EDL, they are using it to discredit some anti-UKIP and anti-EDL facebook groups and promote EDL-ran front events like Woolwich Strong. They are also flogging merchandise.

Very weird.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not sure about the edl not being fash tbh, I reckon they are tbh, I think they fit many of the characteristics in a classical definition of fascism despite there claim to not be racist etc. I'm less sure about the BNP.

that still doesnt mean its politically or socially useful to take the piss out of their spelling or call everyone who's worried about islamist extremism (like me, for example) a fascist

 

[The39thStep]

IMO they aren't separate threats. There is a LOT of crossover in terms of both membership and views, and they have collaborated together on anti-immigration demos in Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire.

A lot of EDL vote UKIP too.

It's not impossible to imagine the EDL being used, the same way as Golden Dawn have been used in Greece, in a SHTF scenario in the UK. In fact I think their right-wing populism and ostensible anti-fascism means that the state would see them as being perfect for the task.

Every one votes UKIP to keep the BNP out surely?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm not sure about the edl not being fash tbh, I reckon they are tbh. I'm less sure about the BNP.

that still doesnt mean its politically or socially useful to take the piss out of their spelling or call everyone who's worried about islamist extremism (like me, for example) a fascist

Nah I don't think they're fascists - they're more like Ulster loyalists IMO. Plenty of fascists among them but their politics aren't coherent enough to be given a label like fascist or anything else for that matter.

 

[belboid]

oh dear, now I appear to be accused of racism, is that correct belboid?

no, i've accused you of being a dishonest cunt who leaps to all sorts of assumptions, and who is a coward who refuses to answer the multitude of criticisms of your wet liberalism. And who wont ever come back and admit, still less apologise for, the simple and straightforward lies you tell.

 

[treelover]

no, i've accused you of being a dishonest cunt who leaps to all sorts of assumptions, and who is a coward who refuses to answer the multitude of criticisms of your wet liberalism. And who wont ever come back and admit, still less apologise for, the simple and straightforward lies you tell.

I really wasn't going to reply to this but the flag was a jihadist flag, if it had been white with black lettering, its meaning would have been different

ha, wet liberal, how can someone who is prepared to challenge other forms of dangerous groupings be a wet liberal.

 

[cesare]

so fucking what, I and many others would like to see a progressive left that takes on the far right but isn't blind to the rise of I/F, there was a couple of guys on the 'peace demo' yesterday with black Islamic flags, no one batted an eyelid..

Did you see and identify this problem at the time; or is this a conclusion that you've reached after having a chance to go through all the twitter feeds/photos etc ie after the event?

 

[J Ed]

Did you see and identify this problem at the time; or is this a conclusion that you've reached after having a chance to go through all the twitter feeds/photos etc ie after the event?

Several friends that I have spoken to who went saw the flag but didn't know what it meant, I'm sure that was the problem for most but not all people there.

A member of Al-Muhajiroun has shown interest in the EDL's march repeat performance next Saturday on their facebook event page and said he was intending on going. So it may have been a member of Al-Muhajiroun and not Hizb who was there, either way Al-Muhajiroun turning up next Saturday and being allowed to stay would be really bad.