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EDL watch

Butchers Here's the bit from this thread.

Racism and bigotry know no class, many of the concerns of racists and bigots could only be spoken to by caving in to far right demands at some level, as the mainstream parties have learned to various degrees. I am interested in the roots of racism and bigotry, such as conservative culture, capitalist alienation etc. I am also interested in issues which effect all people including racists and bigots.

You said

" now we're talking, let's have some more of this then - and on the real material level."

Now, to speak to that further: In a political party sense it would depend on the local situation to the voter, there are plenty of motivations in voting beyond nationalism, race etc.

But in an EDL sense it is more difficult because they are far more single issue. If you want to help them deal with their concerns you will have to speak to such issues as cited by Robinson / Lennon as a top objective - outlawing the Koran. "no new mosques" is another frequent demand. How do you feel we can address the needs of these people? Is it so important to give them full consideration between the chants of "pakis out" and "allah is a peado".

I'd hoped that you would expand. But you just hate humans.

The edl's weight has nothing to with the leaders. It's what these clowns represent. Which is a small pool of right wing youtubers. Why have these clowns got any traction - and what this means for wider w/c politics is the question. Not what you put on the agenda.
 
2 out of 3. Thing is, you talk about alienation, disenfranchisement etc, but it's just words to you isn't it?

What role does class play? What are the underlying issues? Full marks if you can slip in 'post-industrial'.

2 out of 3? Which is the wrong un? Perhaps you think the establishment press doesnt wilfully stir hatred.
Why is it just words to me? What do you know about where I live or the experiences in my community? If you can outline all of that then give us a combined bet for the cricket and rugby world cup winners as well. I might even break habit and do the lottery if you give us the winning numbers for that in advance.

What role does class play? Well as they don't seem to tire of saying, the EDL are predominantly working class. This means they have been shat on from a height and will continue to be shat on, especially while they are led down the cul de sac of patriotic politics and blaming other working class people for their problems. I've already spoken to some of the underlying issues upthread, one of the most important and difficult is probably self-segregation by white and asian communities in key areas.
 
I've already spoken to some of the underlying issues upthread, one of the most important and difficult is probably self-segregation by white and asian communities in key areas.

You haven't, you keep saying that you have, You have not. You taken one issue, said one thing, not examined it and that's it - nothing else.
 
I'd hoped that you would expand. But you just hate humans.

The edl's weight has nothing to with the leaders. It's what these clowns represent. Which is a small pool of right wing youtubers. Why have these clowns got any traction - and what this means for wider w/c politics is the question. Not what you put on the agenda.

I dont hate humans. I like most humans on an individual level, including you as far as I know you. I strongly dislike some human traits like bigotry. Sadly they are a bit more than Youtubers because they intimidate non white communities and political activists. My agenda is increasingly my community, but I also would like to see wholescale social and political changes that would hopefully lessen the fertility for fascism and racism that exist currently.
 
2 out of 3? Which is the wrong un? Perhaps you think the establishment press doesnt wilfully stir hatred.
Why is it just words to me? What do you know about where I live or the experiences in my community? If you can outline all of that then give us a combined bet for the cricket and rugby world cup winners as well. I might even break habit and do the lottery if you give us the winning numbers for that in advance.

What role does class play? Well as they don't seem to tire of saying, the EDL are predominantly working class. This means they have been shat on from a height and will continue to be shat on, especially while they are led down the cul de sac of patriotic politics and blaming other working class people for their problems. I've already spoken to some of the underlying issues upthread, one of the most important and difficult is probably self-segregation by white and asian communities in key areas.

"It's about social isolation and disenfranchisement, the thick chavvy fuckers". That's why it is just words to you. And why do you think you are immune from the poisonous influence of the establishment meedya but they are not?
 
PT - "chav" is not a term I like or use. Why put words in people's mouths.

BA - If I was as arrogant as you think I am then I probably would think myself immune, but I aint.
 
If people complain that immigrants take all the council houses, they are complaining that there are not enough council houses.

If people complain that immigrants are taking their jobs, they are complaining that there is too much pressure on not enough jobs.

If people complain that immigrant labour is keeping their wages down, then they are complaining that the bosses are not paying them enough to live.

If people complain that at least the BNP listen to them, they are complaining that the political mainstream and the left doesn't listen to them.

If people complain that they feel their culture is being drowned out, they are complaining that their own social and economic position is being driven down.

If people complain that we give X amount of foreign aid to Y country, they are complaining that there is not enough investment into deprived areas here in the UK.

They've just reached the wrong conclusion. The grievances are legitimate. And all about class.

We've established that the far right is racist. Go us. Now perhaps we could all try and understand why ordinary people might turn to a racist political alternative.

Why do people say racist things? Because they are racist.

Why do people commit crime? Because they are criminals.

Why do people take drugs? Because they are druggies.

Doesn't work.
 
PT - good as that post is, it doesnt get us much further.

However much a failure my vision is, or that of others you are critical of, do you have any claim to have a better vision and model? does Butchers?

It's all well and fine telling people on a message board their approach is failing. But if fascism and racism have too much traction then presumably your approach is failing too, or not being applied across the board at least. Which is it? If it's the latter is that something we could blame you for too? I do what I can where I live which may or may not be a good model. It's hard to tell because it's never been a place the BNP have stood and I have no breakdown of EDL demo attendance by geography (that's not sarcasm by the way).
Where I live is very mixed community ethnically, even fairly mixed classwise. It is more of a breeding ground of anti racism than racism.
 
We need to understand their concerns BOB, I'm concerned they might not have heard of the Good Friday Agreement.

How long before someone gets killed in a mosque fire? or kicked to death for being a Muslim? the EDL fill these young lads with hate and bigotry, make them think they are soldiers of England and that what they are doing is standing up for England. They are mostly young lads without a clue and i fear it won't be long before people get killed over it all.
 
How long before someone gets killed in a mosque fire? or kicked to death for being a Muslim? the EDL fill these young lads with hate and bigotry, make them think they are soldiers of England and that what they are doing is standing up for England. They are mostly young lads without a clue and i fear it won't be long before people get killed over it all.

Well hopefully no one will be dying, but if something really bad happened we'd probably get a lot of people saying it was bound to happen, essentially because we haven't appeased the far right enough. And lots of people on the left would blame other people on the left for not having the right analysis and course of action.
 
Of course my approach is failing - we don't have enough jobs or council houses or services. But just dismissing them as racists or blabbering on about 'cross-community paradigms between British Nationalism and Loyalism' or Spanish Falangeism or Mosley's brownshirts or whatever (as somebody else did earlier) is just shit. And pointing your finger at them, saying they are thick or they would be okay if only it wasn't for the Sun is also shit, and will only entrench the view a fairly large swathe of the population has (the vast majority of which don't vote BNP or support the EDL), namely that they are ignored, their concerns dismissed, and that nobody represents them. Except maybe this lot.

The best anti-fascism doesn't mention fascism. It doesn't need to.
 
Of course my approach is failing - we don't have enough jobs or council houses or services. But just dismissing them as racists or blabbering on about 'cross-community paradigms between British Nationalism and Loyalism' or Spanish Falangeism or Mosley's brownshirts or whatever (as somebody else did earlier) is just shit. And pointing your finger at them, saying they are thick or they would be okay if only it wasn't for the Sun is also shit, and will only entrench the view a fairly large swathe of the population has (the vast majority of which don't vote BNP or support the EDL), namely that they are ignored, their concerns dismissed, and that nobody represents them. Except maybe this lot.

The best anti-fascism doesn't mention fascism. It doesn't need to.

Agreed, except that historical comparrisons are useful. I thought one of your previous posts was more sarcastic than it was, for which I apologise.

Probably one of the better bits of propaganda around is something Ill link to in a sec, doesnt mention facsism till very near the end.
 
I think I've seen it. Liverpool antifascists do some decent stuff too. It's not new though. It's just been drowned out by the liberal back-slapping and 'nazi scum off our streets' crap.
 
How long before someone gets killed in a mosque fire? or kicked to death for being a Muslim? the EDL fill these young lads with hate and bigotry, make them think they are soldiers of England and that what they are doing is standing up for England. They are mostly young lads without a clue and i fear it won't be long before people get killed over it all.

Where is the evidence for this?
 
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