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Butchers - they are different entities with different objectives. We have cross wibbled about the BNP alot and this thread is about the EDL so I'll stay with that

"..without ever getting close to an understanding of either what drives them..."

Self segretation of communities. Alienation. Disempowerment. Being shat on by the establishment, presented with someone to blame by the establishment and running along with what they are told. Failure by both communities to understand one another better.These are among the more understandable elements. If I lived in such an area I would certainly try and contribute towards a more harmonious and empowered sense of community. But a great deal of it also boils down to not liking "pakis" (perhaps for the reasons above) and taking great delight in being part of a bigger group that doesnt like "pakis". A misunderstood religion with as many conservative aspects as islam also provides a great opportunity for half truths and lies to be manipulated to justift not liking "pakis" even more. And like the BNP, they can hide racial prejudice behind phoney theolgoical concerns.

"potential social weight that these drives have" - they have a big potential social weight. I am not ignoring that at all. I have used it as evidence for attitudes you describe as "snobbish"

"it's largely irrelevant if the people attracted to these groups are dupes and so on." It is not irrelevant to understanding the dynamics of the growth of such groups. Vulnerable people are used, but saying so is apparently part of the problem.
 
butchersapron said:
Depends how (and who) you use the idea. Your BNP electing finger wagging way doesn't work does it?
Click to expand...

I've posted at length about reducing the BNP threat without just "finger wagging". But it's hard to reduce their threat when you live many miles from their activist hotspots and have community concerns to address much closer to home. There's no point in blaming just me or my approach for any advance in fascism. Everyone is responsible. I imagine you oppose capitalism, the banking heist and resultant public service decimation. Does that mean your methods of challenging them have failed? Probably does. Doesn't make you a bad egg, and doesnt make you as responsible as the criminals involved or the hoard of saps who go along with it without lifting a finger.
 
This is an interesting post from elsewhere:


My name's Emma, and I'm from ye olde Lancashire. I'm 21 and actually educated to a minimum level, as in I can hold a conversation with minimal spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.

I 'joined' the EDL after the whole po...ppy burning rigmarole however, I soon learnt, after trying to raise feasible discussions with the group, that they are infact a community of absolute retards. From the off, my ability to string a sentence together confused them immensely, and I was soon branded a 'lefty troll'

I never went to university, I got a job at 14 and worked at the same place for 5 years, I'd sooner earn money than scrounge it, something else the EDL couldn't comprehend.

I WAS a proud English citizen, but my interest is waining, given how rapidly this once Great Britain is going to pot. Saying that, I'll hold on, refrain from setting fire to mosques and just go about my business like a good girl.

The EDL are nothing more than self proclaimed football hooligans, in a dangerously large firm, but while they're not working, and they can't afford coach fares to get to demos (sp? fights) I think we're pretty much safe.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
This is an interesting post from elsewhere:


My name's Emma, and I'm from ye olde Lancashire. I'm 21 and actually educated to a minimum level, as in I can hold a conversation with minimal spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.

I 'joined' the EDL after the whole po...ppy burning rigmarole however, I soon learnt, after trying to raise feasible discussions with the group, that they are infact a community of absolute retards. From the off, my ability to string a sentence together confused them immensely, and I was soon branded a 'lefty troll'

I never went to university, I got a job at 14 and worked at the same place for 5 years, I'd sooner earn money than scrounge it, something else the EDL couldn't comprehend.

I WAS a proud English citizen, but my interest is waining, given how rapidly this once Great Britain is going to pot. Saying that, I'll hold on, refrain from setting fire to mosques and just go about my business like a good girl.

The EDL are nothing more than self proclaimed football hooligans, in a dangerously large firm, but while they're not working, and they can't afford coach fares to get to demos (sp? fights) I think we're pretty much safe.
Click to expand...
Why are you posting this stuff?
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
This is an interesting post from elsewhere:


My name's Emma, and I'm from ye olde Lancashire. I'm 21 and actually educated to a minimum level, as in I can hold a conversation with minimal spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.

I 'joined' the EDL after the whole po...ppy burning rigmarole however, I soon learnt, after trying to raise feasible discussions with the group, that they are infact a community of absolute retards. From the off, my ability to string a sentence together confused them immensely, and I was soon branded a 'lefty troll'

I never went to university, I got a job at 14 and worked at the same place for 5 years, I'd sooner earn money than scrounge it, something else the EDL couldn't comprehend.

I WAS a proud English citizen, but my interest is waining, given how rapidly this once Great Britain is going to pot. Saying that, I'll hold on, refrain from setting fire to mosques and just go about my business like a good girl.

The EDL are nothing more than self proclaimed football hooligans, in a dangerously large firm, but while they're not working, and they can't afford coach fares to get to demos (sp? fights) I think we're pretty much safe.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Captain Hurrah in disguise
 
butchersapron said:
Why are you posting this stuff?
Click to expand...

A bit of an insight in to the motivations and disappointments of someone who got a bit involved with the EDL, this being a thread about the EDL.

I thought you wanted to discuss that kind of thing, but she did soon find out they were "retards" - so perhaps you think she is wagging the finger. Is your solution to take their concerns more seriously? How would you work towards outlawing the Koran?
 
butchersapron said:
I haven't see to do that. Examples.
Click to expand...

There's something from a few hours ago upthread where you said some mildly complimentary things about some aspects of one of my posts. Like yourself (I suspect) I have neither time nor inclination to delve around the back of the internet just to prove the point.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
A bit of an insight in to the motivations and disappointments of someone who got a bit involved with the EDL, this being a thread about the EDL.

I thought you wanted to discuss that kind of thing, but she did soon find out they were "retards" - so perhaps you think she is wagging the finger. Is your solution to take their concerns more seriously? How would you we work towards outlawing the Koran?
Click to expand...

I didn't want to discuss some people facebook arguments no. I wanted top talk about politics and that.
 
All the sneering at people for 'being thick' or pictures of far righters with loyalist paraphernalia doesn't address why the far right has social weight, does it? None of it. It's not just the far right that has plenty of thickos, clearly.

This thread depresses me.
 
Butchers Here's the bit from this thread.

Racism and bigotry know no class, many of the concerns of racists and bigots could only be spoken to by caving in to far right demands at some level, as the mainstream parties have learned to various degrees. I am interested in the roots of racism and bigotry, such as conservative culture, capitalist alienation etc. I am also interested in issues which effect all people including racists and bigots.

You said

" now we're talking, let's have some more of this then - and on the real material level."

Now, to speak to that further: In a political party sense it would depend on the local situation to the voter, there are plenty of motivations in voting beyond nationalism, race etc.

But in an EDL sense it is more difficult because they are far more single issue. If you want to help them deal with their concerns you will have to speak to such issues as cited by Robinson / Lennon as a top objective - outlawing the Koran. "no new mosques" is another frequent demand. How do you feel we can address the needs of these people? Is it so important to give them full consideration between the chants of "pakis out" and "allah is a peado".
 
Proper Tidy said:
All the sneering at people for 'being thick' or pictures of far righters with loyalist paraphernalia doesn't address why the far right has social weight, does it? None of it. It's not just the far right that has plenty of thickos, clearly.

This thread depresses me.
Click to expand...

It's a depressing subject overall. But it has been said here that the far right has weight because of such factors as alienation, disempowerment and the wilful lies of the establishment press.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
It's a depressing subject overall. But it has been said here that the far right has weight because of such factors as alienation, disempowerment and the wilful lies of the establishment press.
Click to expand...

2 out of 3. Thing is, you talk about alienation, disenfranchisement etc, but it's just words to you isn't it?

What role does class play? What are the underlying issues? Full marks if you can slip in 'post-industrial'.
 
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