EDL watch

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It's quite simple. Nationalist politics and its adherents may seem like knuckle dragging cave men to your average soul, but if they're knocking on doors and listening to the concerns of folk in white w/c communities - and are willing to address their needs - then the folk in those communities may be willing to support them as no other fucker appears to be listening. And you don't need to attain a PHD in Marxism to understand that.

In fact the amount of wards where the BNP are active is pretty miniscule as a %. Community activists who happen to be left wing are far more prevalent, though they often don't do it in the name of a party.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Some in The EDL mow coming out to defend the BNP in Barnsley?



http://uaf.org.uk/2011/02/barnsley-antifascists-march-as-edls-links-to-bnp-exposed/

Thanks for that. Mustn't criticise their lack of intelligence though. That would be snobbish and wouldn't do. Maybe we should try and understand their concerns and motivations or something.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

This one is perhaps a bit ruder than some but the constant struggle with the language is typical.

But dont slag off the stupidity please gang. Don't be a snob. Understand that he may be speaking about issues that concern real people when he wants "nigger shaggers" kids to die of "cot deth".

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?fbid=501612971291&set=o.145019135549768&theater

 

[The39thStep]

In fact the amount of wards where the BNP are active is pretty miniscule as a %. Community activists who happen to be left wing are far more prevalent, though they often don't do it in the name of a party.

The level of 'connect' though with working class communities is few and far between. IWCA, HSG and then BNP spring to mind.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Wouldn't want to be snobbish about this one either. Need to speak to his concerns innit. His spelling is better than some though.

fucking joke the lot of you,when your all bending over getting bummed with a knife to your throat being forced to excet allah or die you fucking retarted cowards will still be there with eyes closed hands held saying maybe it will still be ok,enjoy being raped by your goatfucking friends im sure it will all work out for you all in the end remember you shirtlifters and carpet munchers there is a place for you in ISLAM ,and for you tree huggers im sure if you request to be bound to a tree before your raped and beheading eyes closed hands held

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The level of 'connect' though with working class communities is few and far between. IWCA, HSG and then BNP spring to mind.

People towards the left of no party are many times more than all those put together. If you counted Labour supporters that consider themselves leftwing, and people who work on local environmental and community stuff that lot would be buried in numerical terms.

 

[The39thStep]

This one is perhaps a bit ruder than some but the constant struggle with the language is typical.

But dont slag off the stupidity please gang. Don't be a snob. Understand that he may be speaking about issues that concern real people when he wants "nigger shaggers" kids to die of "cot deth".

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?fbid=501612971291&set=o.145019135549768&theater

I don't know if you read some of the work that mathew goodwin and others did on researching the BNP but one of the things that stood out was the BNPs large investment in producing a political cadre. In fact griffins advice was not to recruit the bloke who hated the pakis next door but someone who could understand the totality of their politics.

If you take the piece that Revlon posted you can see why you might get a few cheap laughs but ultimately you are ploughing the wrong furrow

 

[The39thStep]

People towards the left of no party are many times more than all those put together. If you counted Labour supporters that consider themselves leftwing, and people who work on local environmental and community stuff that lot would be buried in numerical terms.

very wierd and speculative accounting there taff and I am not sure whether considering ones self 'left wing' ( means all things to all people) makes anyone more enviromental or community based. The churches for example are full of people like that as are the rotary club, Roundtable etc as of course are the Lib dems

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I don't know if you read some of the work that mathew goodwin and others did on researching the BNP but one of the things that stood out was the BNPs large investment in producing a political cadre. In fact griffins advice was not to recruit the bloke who hated the pakis next door but someone who could understand the totality of their politics.

If you take the piece that Revlon posted you can see why you might get a few cheap laughs but ultimately you are ploughing the wrong furrow

I know what the BNP are about in this regard. Haven't seen that specific research though. I also know that the far right have some brains in the upper echelons, people who are probably far more cynical about the less savvy than I am. In the 2009 Euro Elections the BNP propaganda in my region was by far the most populist in anti-banker rhetoric, they make some intelligent choices.

But tis thread and my comments are more in reference to the EDL, The rank and file dupes are too often genuinelly as stupid as they are bitter and twisted. They may have legit concerns about housing, employment, their environment may be shit. But they aint protesting about that. They are swaggering about singing "allah is a paedo" out of tune. And anyone who says that they are dim can fuck off, according to certain high minded self appointed ajudicants of what it means to be into working class politics.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

very wierd and speculative accounting there taff and I am not sure whether considering ones self 'left wing' ( means all things to all people) makes anyone more enviromental or community based. The churches for example are full of people like that as are the rotary club, Roundtable etc as of course are the Lib dems

Oh that's all true as well if you want to broaden it out like that. I'm certainly not being speculative. How many wards are IWCA active in nationwide? In the predominantly working class city I live in the BNP are active in under 20% of wards, by active I dont mean much more than putting up a candidate. I doubt they doorknock or leaflet more than 3 wards, and I doubt even more that the doorknocking is very widespread.

 

[butchersapron]

I know what the BNP are about in this regard. Haven't seen that specific research though. I also know that the far right have some brains in the upper echelons, people who are probably far more cynical about the less savvy than I am. In the 2009 Euro Elections the BNP propaganda in my region was by far the most populist in anti-banker rhetoric, they make some intelligent choices.

But tis thread and my comments are more in reference to the EDL, The rank and file dupes are too often genuinelly as stupid as they are bitter and twisted. They may have legit concerns about housing, employment, their environment may be shit. But they aint protesting about that. They are swaggering about singing "allah is a paedo" out of tune. And anyone who says that they are dim can fuck off, according to certain high minded self appointed ajudicants of what it means to be into working class politics.

You have a BNP MEP representing you.There's also one next door. How well do you feel your they're all knuckle draggers approach has gone so far?

 

[frogwoman]

Someone I know was recently saying that "the left" shouldn't try to recruit people who were potentially attracted to the BNP and EDL as "they weren't working class", and so not the sort of people we should try to attract anyway.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

You have a BNP MEP representing you.There's also one next door. How well do you feel your they're all knuckle draggers approach has gone so far?

I didn't say they were all knuckledraggers, but I know you're not liable to let facts in the way of slagging people off. I was speaking more about a number of EDL supporters who are indeed dim. Dimness is not unique to them, it takes many forms. For instance the legion of muppets who say "no one saw the financial crisis comming" and now suppose that we have to slash and burn the public sector to feed the banking hyenas. They are wrong. I'm not going to apologise for saying it and it doesnt make me a "snob".

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't say they were all knuckledraggers, but I know you're not liable to let facts in the way of slagging people off. I was speaking more about a number of EDL supporters who are indeed dim. Dimness is not unique to them, it takes many forms. For instance the legion of muppets who say "no one saw the financial crisis comming" and now suppose that we have to slash and burn the public sector to feed the banking hyenas. They are wrong. I'm not going to apologise for saying it and it doesnt make me a "snob".

I wasn't asking you to apologise for anything, you're too wrapped up in your moral purity to do that. I was asking you to critically reflect on the similarities between your hur hur thickos approach to the BNP and that you take to the edl. Hasn't the advance of the BNP to a position where they were elected to represent you shone a it of alight on the gaps that such an approach contains - you know, the political and social stuff?

And yes, you are a sickening snob.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The moderate success of the BNP is down to a huge range of factors, including the anti BNP forces making a number of strategic errors.
I was the only person to raise these errors in a speil that I gave at the the national UAF conference after Griffin got elected. I don't believe UAF have substantially altered their approach, the BNP are struggling now for different reasons. The social and political backdrop to the growth of the EDL (which is now somewhat abating) is also complex, bringing in such aspects as self segregation in communities.
But this doesnt detract from the fact that much of the appeal is raw bigotry and a chance to express it. I daresay it is exiting enough for the young men getting involved (it is mostly men) and the first time they have engaged in anything remotely "political".

They are still generally dupes though, dupes for the divide and rule tactics of the ruling class - the bitter lies of the right wing press and other intersts further to the right. The BNP didnt win MEP seats because they spoke to any concerns far beyond race or the anti-establishment sentiment of the time. Whipped up racist sentiment of the press played a far bigger part in their victory than doorknocking around the issue of housing and other genuine working class issues.

 

[butchersapron]

I would be happy to speak to the concerns of any working class person in my community, indeed I do so in a number of capacities.

What a great opening line

Get back the rest in a sec, just wanted to say that first.

 

[nino_savatte]

Don't believe me? Even their website says so!

Orwellian, I'd say. They clearly have a selective understanding of what 'human rights' entails.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What a great opening line

Get back the rest in a sec, just wanted to say that first.

Yeh it was shit, thinking of something else. Deleted it, little revisionist that I am.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

One more footnote to the last post Butchers: The BNP may have won that NW seat, but it wasnt actually due to a failure on my part. Neither do I attribute it as a personal success that the BNP only came 6th across the 32 wards of Manchester while the Green Party came 3rd.

 

[butchersapron]

The rest: you're still missing the point, they've progressed this far - why? Has being 'dupes' mattered? Is this the point on which we should deal with them? Is this what's led to their success? Is this what matters?

 

[butchersapron]

One more footnote to the last post Butchers: The BNP may have won that NW seat, but it wasnt actually due to a failure on my part. Neither do I attribute it as a personal success that the BNP only came 6th across the 32 wards of Manchester while the Green Party came 3rd.

Yeah, i know, you're pure. And they won.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Orwellian, I'd say. They clearly have a selective understanding of what 'human rights' entails.

The way they wank off about halal, burkha and treatment of homosexuals in "islamic" countries you'd think they were an especially vegan feminist LGBT branch of Amnesty International.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yeah, i know, you're pure. And they won.

You seem to think they won because of a failure represented my attitudes. You don't know what my attitudes are. You are simplistic. We all lost. I am not pure, just because you say something doesnt make it so.

You are every bit as arrogant and high minded as you accuse me of being and I've always found it very amusing. Keep on trucking.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The rest: you're still missing the point, they've progressed this far - why? Has being 'dupes' mattered? Is this the point on which we should deal with them? Is this what's led to their success? Is this what matters?

Are these questions about EDL or BNP? The answers would be different depending.

 

[butchersapron]

You seem to think they won because of a failure represented my attitudes. You don't know what my attitudes are. You are simplistic. We all lost. I am not pure, just because you say something doesnt make it so.

You are every bit as arrogant and high minded as you accuse me of being and I've always found it very amusing. Keep on trucking.

I know damn well what attitude you have, it's smeared over every post you make. It's one that fits in well with the tone of mainstream anti-fascism. It's been failing for a long time. It actually mirrors much of the lefts attitudes to the w/c as well. If only they could be dragged away from their TVs, hear my good news etc

 

[butchersapron]

Are these questions about EDL or BNP? The answers would be different depending.

Well, i've just made a post about the similarities of your approach to both.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Well, i've just made a post about the similarities of your approach to both.

But I dont consider it appropriate to deal with the specific problems presented by both as a single issue., regardless of some overalp. Perhaps you were wrong. In fact I know you were wrong because we have been round this block quite a few times.

 

[butchersapron]

But I dont consider it appropriate to deal with the specific problems presented by both as a single issue., regardless of some overalp. Perhaps you were wrong. In fact I know you were wrong because we have been round this block quite a few times.

I think that your approach to both is substantively the same - to say that they're knuckle draggers, dupes, thick fucks, dregs who don't know what real english/british culture is etc without ever getting close to an understanding of either what drives them or the potential social weight that these drives have, and by missing these you miss out why it's largely irrelevant if the people attracted to these groups are dupes and so on.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I know damn well what attitude you have, it's smeared over every post you make. It's one that fits in well with the tone of mainstream anti-fascism. It's been failing for a long time. It actually mirrors much of the lefts attitudes to the w/c as well. If only they could be dragged away from their TVs, hear my good news etc

Well it would be helpful if people of all classes didnt seem to endlessly parrot establishment media lies.
Is it counter productive to think so or say so? Despite my disagreements with aspects of "mainstream anti fascism" it isn't actually their fault that fascism does better than it might.

Goebels knew a great deal about how to manipulate perception using techniques which have been improved on and developed since. Lots of the people who voted for fascism in the 1930s were indeed desperate dupes sold on lies. Just because the fascists won in some instances doesnt mean there should be a block on discussing how it happened.

Racism and bigotry know no class, many of the concerns of racists and bigots could only be spoken to by caving in to far right demands at some level, as the mainstream parties have learned to various degrees. I am interested in the roots of racism and bigotry, such as conservative culture, capitalist alienation etc. I am also interested in issues which effect all people including racists and bigots.

Challenging racism and bigotry is bloody hard work, as is trying to address the concerns of everyday people.

Again, your tendency to snipe at people trying to grapple with these issues is no more productive than you accuse me of being.

 

[butchersapron]

What political use is you standing there (on your own) howling that you know what the elite is really up to and that no one else sees it?

Racism and bigotry know no class, many of the concerns of racists and bigots could only be spoken to by caving in to far right demands at some level, as the mainstream parties have learned to various degrees. I am interested in the roots of racism and bigotry, such as conservative culture, capitalist alienation etc. I am also interested in issues which effect all people including racists and bigots.

Right, now we're talking, let's have some more of this then - and on the real material level.