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taffboy gwyrdd said:
Do you think the EDL represent English culture? If so, how?
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They represent a part of English culture as do you. Both fucking pointless and squalid. There is no homogeneous english culture made up of court dances and royal sponsored poems (and largely constructed in the 19th century) which you can say is the english culture, or demand that you have knowledge of or not be proper english.

This is where you liberal mugs always end up - in RAF bombers over dresden. For the real england. With billy bragg on the player.
 
frogwoman said:
yeah, i'm just a massive racist really.
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It was a serious question. You attacked me for (seemingly) thinking I consider myself a judge of culture. I don't especially, but was wondering if you consider the EDL to be such judges, because I certainly don't. Yet they claim to be. It's laughable. That's why I laugh at them. People on here think I shouldn't laugh because the poor little racists might be working class. Class is a social and economic relationship, not an excuse for bitter ignorant hatred.
 
i don't as it happens. i just think you're not thinking very much. there is a clear link between economic situation and educational attainment (as well as the fact that many measures of "intelligence" and so on are desinged by middle class/upper class men). there is also a link between peoples economic situation and other problems, and more importantly the ability to cope financially etc with those problems when they arise. to put it crudely a rich guy earning millions a year with a massive coke habit will be able to cope far better financially with the consequences of that habit financially than a middle class person or a working class person, who will face being kicked out of their house, not being able to pay the rent, look after their kids, etc etc. the same would obviously go for the effects of that on any kids the person had.

there's also stuff like the self-fulfilling prophecy and teachers making unspoken assumptions about the kids on their names, the way they're dressed etc, which leads them to perhaps punish certain behaviour more severely when it's done by certain kids than by others. the obvious one is race but it is class based as well. i can't believe as a teacher that you did not know about this stuff.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
People on here think I shouldn't laugh because the poor little racists might be working class. Class is a social and economic relationship, not an excuse for bitter ignorant hatred.
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This is your idiocy in a nutshell - 1) no they don't. 2) yes it is, and so then it effects how social prejudices are produced manifested and then reproduced. So back to 1)
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
It was a serious question. You attacked me for (seemingly) thinking I consider myself a judge of culture. I don't especially, but was wondering if you consider the EDL to be such judges, because I certainly don't. Yet they claim to be. It's laughable. That's why I laugh at them. People on here think I shouldn't laugh because the poor little racists might be working class. Class is a social and economic relationship, not an excuse for bitter ignorant hatred.
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employment is a social and economic relationship. there's often bitter hatred from the employee for the employer (and vice versa). sadly it's all too often not ignorant. if one particular social and economic relationship can lead to such bile, why do you think class can't or shouldn't? and is ignorant hatred in your opinion better or worse than hatred based on familiarity?
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
It was a serious question. You attacked me for (seemingly) thinking I consider myself a judge of culture. I don't especially, but was wondering if you consider the EDL to be such judges, because I certainly don't. Yet they claim to be. It's laughable. That's why I laugh at them. People on here think I shouldn't laugh because the poor little racists might be working class. Class is a social and economic relationship, not an excuse for bitter ignorant hatred.
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of course i don't consider them a judge of culture. that's not the point. part of it is what is culture and who decides what's cultured or uncultured or even who gets to be in a position to decide this stuff.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I don't have to imagine it. I live it and among it, quite possibly like you. Do you think the white working class are more prone to racism and ignorance than other sections of society?
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I actually do come from such conditions of life. And still live and work among it. I didn't move in from outside. I'm not someone on a civilising mission, looking for rough diamonds to polish. It seems you are really, really, insufferably fucking blind as to just how your approach, and general sneeriness is counter-productive. In attacking the clear lack of education of a few tools, or inadequate access to it, and something which is experienced by others, you're insulting the intelligence of a lot of people.
 
Also there's just really obvious stuff with things like the funding of schools, some schools don't have the facilities to deal with kids that need extra help with their reading and writing etc, and especially if that kid is acting up because of a bad situation at home and is simply thought of as "a little twat" or whatever, then what then? or if a kid doesn't attract the teacher's attention in any way (through being especially obviously badly behaved or well-behaved) but is struggling with stuff but is too afraid to ask?
 
butchersapron said:
They represent a part of English culture as do you. Both fucking pointless and squalid. There is no homogeneous english culture made up of court dances and royal sponsored poems (and largely constructed in the 19th century) which you can say is the english culture, or demand that you have knowledge of or not be proper english.

This is where you liberal mugs always end up - in RAF bombers over dresden. For the real england. With billy bragg on the player.
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It's fair and obvious that culture is not homgeneous. The EDL certainly are squalid, you know nearly nothing about me, but if you want to think me squalid and pointless I should bow to your judgement. I am just glad we have such stalwarts as you to make the call. And look where it got us.
 
Captain Hurrah said:
I actually do come such conditions of life. And still live among it. I didn't move in from outside. I'm not someone on a civilising mission, looking for rough diamonds to polish. It seems you are really, really, insufferably fucking blind as to just how your approach, and general sneeriness is counter-productive. In attacking the clear lack of education of a few tools, or inadequate access to it, and something which is experienced by others, you're insulting the intelligence of a lot of people.
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I disagree. Most working class people aren't racist or ignorant. In fact middle class people are just likely to be. Any implication that racism and ignorance are a product of being working class is what insults the intelligence of a lot of people. How much more round the houses do you want to go on this? Do you think I consider myself on a civilising mission? Is it backed up by research from the Ministry of Things That Popped Into Your Head?
 
frogwoman said:
of course i don't consider them a judge of culture. that's not the point. part of it is what is culture and who decides what's cultured or uncultured or even who gets to be in a position to decide this stuff.
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They do consider themselves a judge of culture, guardians of it even. It's very funny.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I disagree. Most working class people aren't racist or ignorant. In fact middle class people are just likely to be. Any implication that racism and ignorance are a product of being working class is what insults the intelligence of a lot of people. How much more round the houses do you want to go on this? Do you think I consider myself on a civilising mission? Is it backed up by research from the Ministry of Things That Popped Into Your Head?
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I give up.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
It's fair and obvious that culture is not homgeneous. The EDL certainly are squalid, you know nearly nothing about me, but if you want to think me squalid and pointless I should bow to your judgement. I am just glad we have such stalwarts as you to make the call. And look where it got us.
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If it's fair and obvious then why and who the hell are you judge other people on their genuine englishness by their knowledge of Elizabethan madrigals? You're playing the same identity politics bollocks as them just in defence of a top down royal england history that wipes out both people like the EDL and people like me and the others who are wasting their time on this thread trying to teach you the very basics of politics.
 
He is undecided about pre-historic spacemen - really, and keeps an open mind over over 'related things'. What more do you need to know? I asked you earlier what you taught taffboy, did you answer?
 
and also why the fuck do people set such store by the whole idea of "intelligence", i mean really. especially people who say they are against fascism. its something that really annoys me because the whole concept of intelligence is so fucking loaded and so determined by how you do in a test designed in near laboratory conditions by people who have no idea about anyone's life.

i know you're well meaning taffboy but there are loads of fash who believe the same stuff when it comes to intelligence, that you're just thick because you are or don't want to try and fuck any environmental factors that may arise. you're thick because it's innate but it's also your fault for not "trying" hard enough. it's a fucking dangerous way of looking at people. there are fash who look down on edl members for the same reasons you are, that they're not intelligent enough because they don't know enough about the "english culture" (if such a thing exists) and havent read enough evola or spengler. being a fash doesn't mean not fitting in with your idea of what english culture is. i don't think your approach is helpful because you're not proving why their ideas are wrong (nor are those "critics" i mentioned from the right) or why people should not listen to them, you're attacking them for something that's completely irrelevant to it in a content-less, analysis-less way.

laugh at them by all means but don't kid yourself that berating them for bad spelling and lack of knowledge about culture etc is a political strategy.
 
He still thinks we're saying working class people are more prone to racism. I give up. Either he's terminally stupid, doesn't want to understand the points put to him or he's being deliberately dishonest.
 
I don't think so - people like him are only at home being shining lights amongst the plebian darkness, they can only see bad around them - it's the only way they can make sense of the world, it's not being deliberately stupid/dishonest.
 
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