SpineyNorman
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You don't get it do you?
EDL watch
- Thread starter Das Uberdog
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You don't get it do you?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
What do they know frogwoman? That they are supposed to only be against militant islam? That it looks daft to use medieval and older imagary when denouncing islam for being "dark ages"? Or about the conversion vision of constantine?
It's true I don't get that it is anti working class to credit the working class with a fair degree of intelligence and knowledge. But then I only just found out that we have always been at war with Eastasia. I guess it must be all that life experience of being working class, living and working among the working class. I am waiting for Butchers to organise a showtrial for me as it happens.
Please note Butch: I can't do Thursday (Kapital reading group) or Friday (trip to some opera).
Ranbay
The same rules apply
SpineyNorman
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Nothing to do with "intelligence" as you well know. It's about you having a go at them for their grammar etc. rather than their views. It might not fit with your liberal fantasy of everyone having the same level of access to knowledge but the fact is that illiteracy is higher among the working class than among the other economic strata. This is unsurprising to anyone with a basic grasp on reality - if you have to spend much of your life just keeping your head above water you don't get the same chance to educate yourself as those who don't. Equally, lack of resources means that, even if you had the time, many educational channels are simply not available to you.
And so, when people see the likes of you making a big thing about bad grammar they think (as I do) "hang on a minute, their views might be repugnant, but in taking the piss out of them for their bad grammar, he's taking the piss out of me for mine" (or my friends, family, etc. for theirs). I have good mates who can hardly read or write. None of them are racist. Do you honestly think they'll just think, "it's ok, he's taking the piss out of illiteracy but only because they're racist - yes he's saying people with bad grammar are thick but he doesn't mean me" or might they think, "their views might be repugnant but he's not just taking the piss out of them - he's taking the piss out of me too."
It's not about abstract principle. It's about what's conducive to the advancement of your political ends and what's counter-productive. Your approach is the latter, and all your claims about being a working class teacher don't make the slightest bit of difference.
Nobody is saying that you're "making racists" but what you are doing is making sure people won't want to join anything that you, or those who use your arguments, are involved with. You're not making racists but you are putting people off antiracism. I know for a fact I'd never want to work with you because, and only because, of this. And if, unlike me, these people haven't met real antiracists they may well assume (perfectly reasonably) that we're all like you. So although they're against racism, they will not get involved because you make us all look like sneering liberal cunts.
And the way you assume people with low levels of literacy must be unintelligent is revealing. You completely ignore the differing levels of access to education between the working and middle classes (and that's ignoring conditions like dyslexia). But that's cos you're a liberal and so class doesn't matter - we're all just individuals and our educational attainment depends only on our intelligence and application, maaan.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i would have thought its just basic common sense that people who are poorer would have less access to education and other opportunities? there's also the whole concept of the self fulfilling prophecy as well (ie kids with certain names being thought to be thick by teachers).
Yep. Feeds back into family, friends, neighbours etc. Yeah, it's all fine slagging off and sniggering at the literacy (or lack thereof) of certain EDL members, but it's just going to show up the 'us' and 'them,' the middle class wanker on the outside looking in. Anti-racist people who nevertheless know all too well through personal experience, or that of their loved ones, friends etc, who struggled with those same class-based, economically generated problems.
Same here as well mate. Work with a lad who's reading skills are let's say, not good. And that isn't because he's thick either. A poor, hard, and chaotic upbringing.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Thanks for clarifying. Aspects at the top may know where the motto comes from, I doubt a survey of supporters would receive a majority of correct answers very much more than it would recieve a cogent analysis of the theological outcomes of the Council of Nicea.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
First, I don't assume that low levels of literacy indicate low levels of intelligence. My comments with regards to history were not about literacy. Perhaps I should have said "knowledge" though the inquisition may have picked out a problem with that as well.
There are plenty of examples of societies where working class people routinely prided themselves on good levels of literacy, culture and general knowledge despite having to keep their heads above water.
I refuse top believe that being working class per se
I have repeatedly said that the levels of literacy among the archetypal EDL frother are far below the average for the working class. That is based on many years actual experience working in the field with age ranges from 11 to 60+. And I understand a fair deal about dyslexia too, not least with having a dyslexic wife and being dyspraxic myself.
Again, repeatedly I have stated that what is funny about EDL being so often dire in literacy use is not the illiteracy itself, but the fact that they claim to be an "English" Defence League. It's fucking risible and I am not going to say so out of some desire to infantalise or patronise the working class in general.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Spineynorman
First, I don't assume that low levels of literacy indicate low levels of intelligence. My comments with regards to history were not about literacy. Perhaps I should have said "knowledge" though the inquisition may have picked out a problem with that as well. But intelligence is the ability to discriminate from and between different pieces of information, generally in a reasoned way. This is not something the EDL seem to have an overall gift for.
If you really wish to assume I think "unintelligence" synonymous with low literacy levels that would say more about you than me.
There are plenty of examples of societies where working class people routinely prided themselves on achieving good levels of literacy, culture and general knowledge despite having to keep their heads above water.
I have repeatedly said that the levels of literacy among the archetypal EDL frother are far below the average for the working class. That is based on many years actual experience working in the field with age ranges from 11 to 60+. And I understand a fair deal about dyslexia too, not least through having a dyslexic wife and being dyspraxic myself.
Again, repeatedly I have stated that what is funny about EDL being so often dire in literacy use is not the illiteracy itself, but the fact that they claim to be an "English" Defence League. It's fucking risible. Their hate and disgusting ignorant politics make them fair game for humour, and I am not going to shy away from saying so out of some desire to infantalise or patronise the working class in general.
First, I don't assume that low levels of literacy indicate low levels of intelligence. My comments with regards to history were not about literacy. Perhaps I should have said "knowledge" though the inquisition may have picked out a problem with that as well. But intelligence is the ability to discriminate from and between different pieces of information, generally in a reasoned way. This is not something the EDL seem to have an overall gift for.
If you really wish to assume I think "unintelligence" synonymous with low literacy levels that would say more about you than me.
There are plenty of examples of societies where working class people routinely prided themselves on achieving good levels of literacy, culture and general knowledge despite having to keep their heads above water.
I have repeatedly said that the levels of literacy among the archetypal EDL frother are far below the average for the working class. That is based on many years actual experience working in the field with age ranges from 11 to 60+. And I understand a fair deal about dyslexia too, not least through having a dyslexic wife and being dyspraxic myself.
Again, repeatedly I have stated that what is funny about EDL being so often dire in literacy use is not the illiteracy itself, but the fact that they claim to be an "English" Defence League. It's fucking risible. Their hate and disgusting ignorant politics make them fair game for humour, and I am not going to shy away from saying so out of some desire to infantalise or patronise the working class in general.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You have no idea how much of a cock you look.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
how many church people who you found at the sunday service would be able to give you a cogent analysis of the same?and even if they can't that's not the point.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i hate the edl fash as well. but going on about spelling and so on, how does that do any good? you seem to be fixated on it. this is why i got so fed up of these "expose" type groups on facebook, they've got nothing to do with fighting the fash it's all "look how stupid so and so is" and "omg an edl member said something racist". Of course they are going to say racist stuff when they are in a racist organisation. tell me what you're going to do about it. as for not knowing/discriminating between different pieces of information - who here can say they're the best at it. loads of people don't know how to discriminate against sources etc and often tend to believe what they are told. including me at times.
you're not attacking their ideas, you're not attacking the divisive roles they have in communities - communities where even the people who think theyre scum and want nothing to do with them frequently have similar low levels of literacy and undiagnosed conditions such as dyslexia etc. you're just saying "LOL their spelling is shit" - well so what.
Ranbay
The same rules apply
They seem to think it's going to do them wonders, but as you say it's not the kind of show that goes, "look how cool these people are, you should join them"
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Frogwoman
You may find it boring to deride bad English from an English Defence League, fuckwitted wanton hate-filled ignorance or flat out racism. That's cool. It doesn't make it anti working class or out of order to do so. With respect you have no idea what work I or others on the likes of Expose do in our communities. We certainly do attack their ideas, it's not exactly a stretch either.
You may find it boring to deride bad English from an English Defence League, fuckwitted wanton hate-filled ignorance or flat out racism. That's cool. It doesn't make it anti working class or out of order to do so. With respect you have no idea what work I or others on the likes of Expose do in our communities. We certainly do attack their ideas, it's not exactly a stretch either.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
That says alot about orthodox Christianity. The point is that they claim to be defending English and Christian culture with scant evidence of knowing about either. It's stupid and offensive and it has diggidy fuck all to do with class, unless you think the working class are predisposed to such ignorance. I happen not to.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What does it say about orthodox christianity? What is orthodox christianity?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, that's the comparison. And you're very quiet on the similarities.
SpineyNorman
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You do - it's implicit in everything you have written in this little back and forth.
Has anyone denied this? But the impediments to gaining this knowledge, to accessing education, are very real. Even in this context it is still more difficult for the working class than it is for the middle class. Again, I'm astonished that I have to point this out to someone as clearly superior and enlightened as you.
Err... ok. Maybe it's not just the EDL element within the swinish multitude that has problems with the English language?
This may come as a surprise to you taffboy, but roughly half of the working class is below the average for the working class when it comes to literacy. That's sort of how averages work. And I quite explicitly stated that I was ignoring those conditions, so why you had to reveal this great personal knowledge, inaccesible to the rest of us (you have a great deal of that don't you...) is a mystery.
Again, I didn't ought to have to point this out to one so learned as you, but the motivation behind an action has no bearing whatsoever on its consequences.
It's plainly counter-productive. Either themselves, or people who know the kind of man/woman with the same articulacy as Mr Muslamic Rayguns (I do), but who aren't like that in beliefs and outlook, are going to avoid you like the plague, or deliberately adopt a position opposed to yours, just to piss you off and get you out of the way. It will show up the gulf in wealth and opportunity and alienate good, decent people that are, you know, those poor and uneducated types.
SpineyNorman
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Why the need to produce a second post with all the same stuff in it, with a couple of added extras thrown in?
Dealt with already.
Well you do appear to be claiming that anyone who points out the uncontroversial fact that literacy levels among the w/c are lower than among the m/c is "infantilising" the working class, claiming we're all stupid. That would suggest that there is a connection in your mind, even as you try to kid yourself that there isn't.
Dealt with.
Dealt with.
Dealt with.
Err... you think I'm opposed to your sneering because I somehow feel empathy for them? That I don't think they deserve it? Fuck off. You claimed that it was productive from an antifascist POV to do what you're doing, not that they deserved it because of their political behaviour. Just to be clear, if it wasn't utterly counter-productive, I'd have no problem with it. Frankly I couldn't give a shit what happens to them; they're scum.
And now you're reduced to using the arguments employed by libertarians, Tories and other such scum against a class based analysis. Anyone who points out the obvious, demonstrable fact that working class people face greater impediments to education than others is "patronising and infantilising" them. Just as anyone who claims that it's harder for someone from a w/c background to be successful in business is "infantilising and patronising" them.
I'd like to know taffboy, am I patronising and infantilising myself? Only I grew up on a council estate, didn't do very well at school, left at 16 to become a pipe fitter. I didn't have a single academic qualification before I reached 30. And even then there was a great deal of luck involved. I had opportunities that had previously been denied to me and will continue to be denied to vast swathes of the population. But what do I know? I'm not a teacher after all.
It's all well and good struggling against these inequalities, pointing out that were it not for these impediments we'd do at least as well as everyone else. But when you try and claim that the inequalities produced by these impediments don't exist then, rather than struggling against inequality, capitalism, the state or whatever, your struggle is instead against reality itself.
And that's why you're a liberal. No place for structure in your world view - it's all about individual agency. You'll be talking about the end of class and likening "classism" to racism and sexism before you know it.
Dealt with already.
Well you do appear to be claiming that anyone who points out the uncontroversial fact that literacy levels among the w/c are lower than among the m/c is "infantilising" the working class, claiming we're all stupid. That would suggest that there is a connection in your mind, even as you try to kid yourself that there isn't.
Dealt with.
Dealt with.
Dealt with.
Err... you think I'm opposed to your sneering because I somehow feel empathy for them? That I don't think they deserve it? Fuck off. You claimed that it was productive from an antifascist POV to do what you're doing, not that they deserved it because of their political behaviour. Just to be clear, if it wasn't utterly counter-productive, I'd have no problem with it. Frankly I couldn't give a shit what happens to them; they're scum.
And now you're reduced to using the arguments employed by libertarians, Tories and other such scum against a class based analysis. Anyone who points out the obvious, demonstrable fact that working class people face greater impediments to education than others is "patronising and infantilising" them. Just as anyone who claims that it's harder for someone from a w/c background to be successful in business is "infantilising and patronising" them.
I'd like to know taffboy, am I patronising and infantilising myself? Only I grew up on a council estate, didn't do very well at school, left at 16 to become a pipe fitter. I didn't have a single academic qualification before I reached 30. And even then there was a great deal of luck involved. I had opportunities that had previously been denied to me and will continue to be denied to vast swathes of the population. But what do I know? I'm not a teacher after all.
It's all well and good struggling against these inequalities, pointing out that were it not for these impediments we'd do at least as well as everyone else. But when you try and claim that the inequalities produced by these impediments don't exist then, rather than struggling against inequality, capitalism, the state or whatever, your struggle is instead against reality itself.
And that's why you're a liberal. No place for structure in your world view - it's all about individual agency. You'll be talking about the end of class and likening "classism" to racism and sexism before you know it.
Pretty much.
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