EDL watch

[taffboy gwyrdd]

SpineyNorman

I ain's sure all those "dealt withs"have been, but anyhow...

"And now you're reduced to using the arguments employed by libertarians, Tories and other such scum against a class based analysis. Anyone who points out the obvious, demonstrable fact that working class people face greater impediments to education than others is "patronising and infantilising" them. Just as anyone who claims that it's harder for someone from a w/c background to be successful in business is "infantilising and patronising" them."

Which kind of proves my 1st point.

It's all well and good struggling against these inequalities, pointing out that were it not for these impediments we'd do at least as well as everyone else. But when you try and claim that the inequalities produced by these impediments don't exist then, rather than struggling against inequality, capitalism, the state or whatever, your struggle is instead against reality itself.

Oh, I recognise inequalities. I just don't see them as an excuse for fuckwit racism. After all there is plenty of fuckwit racism in the middle and upper classes as well.

And that's why you're a liberal. No place for structure in your world view - it's all about individual agency.

Just because I may I think individuals would bear some respnsibility for being subliterate hypocritical drooling bigots, doesn't mean I don't think structures encourage racism and hate. But there is no reason for the working class to be more predisposed to wards it.

You'll be talking about the end of class and likening "classism" to racism and sexism before you know it.

I don't really have to. Someone can make it up that I did anyway, although the use of the term "middle class" as a pejorative has always interested me. I started a thread on it a few years back, got flamed for it and the attitudes haven't really moved on.

As said up thread, why so many give heed to Marx and Engels when they were middle class is quite a riddle.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It's plainly counter-productive. Either themselves, or people who know the kind of man/woman with the same articulacy as Mr Muslamic Rayguns

I think muslamic rayguns man was on valium at the time FWIW.

 

[Termite Man]

This thread is getting boring now, sneering at the poor language is pointless because a) the EDLers won't suddenly think 'my English is shit I should lay off Islam' and b) it makes you look like a smug twat who can't counter the arguments so you focus on the language

 

[butchersapron]

As said up thread, why so many give heed to Marx and Engels when they were middle class is quite a riddle.

To who? Why is it a riddle to you? They expressed clear pro-w/c views and acted on them in various ways over 5 decades of 'serious work'. What sort of idiot rejects people because of their class background taffers?

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I think muslamic rayguns man was on valium at the time FWIW.

And beer. But my point, although slightly impaired, still stands.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://twitpic.com/8agban

Go easy on these guys. That's what being anti liberal means. They could be working class after all.

 

[SpineyNorman]

SpineyNorman

I ain's sure all those "dealt withs"have been, but anyhow...

They have. Look at the post prior to the one you quoted - you made two almost identical posts, the second with a few bit added in. I responded to the first, then only to the points I had not addressed in the second.

"And now you're reduced to using the arguments employed by libertarians, Tories and other such scum against a class based analysis. Anyone who points out the obvious, demonstrable fact that working class people face greater impediments to education than others is "patronising and infantilising" them. Just as anyone who claims that it's harder for someone from a w/c background to be successful in business is "infantilising and patronising" them."

Which kind of proves my 1st point.

How? You're using the same arguments Tories use and so that proves your first point? Even by your standards that's utterly bizarre.

It's all well and good struggling against these inequalities, pointing out that were it not for these impediments we'd do at least as well as everyone else. But when you try and claim that the inequalities produced by these impediments don't exist then, rather than struggling against inequality, capitalism, the state or whatever, your struggle is instead against reality itself.

Oh, I recognise inequalities. I just don't see them as an excuse for fuckwit racism. After all there is plenty of fuckwit racism in the middle and upper classes as well.

Of course they bear responsibility for their views, who said otherwise? Who is "excusing their racism"? I'm not against it because I feel sorry for EDLers or think that because they're working class they should be allowed to get away with being racist. I'm against it because of its wider consequences. If there were no wider consequences I wouldn't have a problem, I've already told you this though so I'm not sure why we need to go over it again.

And that's why you're a liberal. No place for structure in your world view - it's all about individual agency.

Just because I may I think individuals would bear some respnsibility for being subliterate hypocritical drooling bigots, doesn't mean I don't think structures encourage racism and hate. But there is no reason for the working class to be more predisposed to wards it.

What? Now you seem to be quoting my posts, then replying to posts that exist only in your mind. So I'll say it again, this time in bold so it might sink in: I'm not against it because I feel sorry for EDLers or think that because they're working class they should be allowed to get away with being racist. I'm against it because of its wider consequences. If there were no wider consequences I wouldn't have a problem.

You'll be talking about the end of class and likening "classism" to racism and sexism before you know it.

I don't really have to. Someone can make it up that I did anyway, although the use of the term "middle class" as a pejorative has always interested me. I started a thread on it a few years back, got flamed for it and the attitudes haven't really moved on.

As said up thread, why so many give heed to Marx and Engels when they were middle class is quite a riddle.

It's not about being middle class, it's about what people do. I have middle class friends, some of them are among my closest political allies. One of them happens to have posted on this thread in agreement with what I'm saying here. It's about attitudes that exist within the middle class. A lack of understanding of the barriers we face, an attitude you're displaying here. Marx and Engels never did that, and even if they had, would that invalidate the useful insights they had? I've also found Machiavelli useful in understanding politics and he was a right twat.

 

[Deareg]

Haven't really been following this debate but my own penny's worth is, many working class people leave school with sub standard education, myself included, of those of us who become politically active, on the left we tend to read and debate a lot so we end up educating ourselves and our use of the language improves, on the right they are largely content with with hating and intimidating those who they deem to be not with them, getting drunk and tattooed and rarely try to use debates to further there beliefs so there use of English does not improve, so to cut a long story short, fuck the dumb bastards.

And I am aware that my usage of the words there and their are usually wrong.

 

[butchersapron]

http://twitpic.com/8agban

Go easy on these guys. That's what being anti liberal means. They could be working class after all.

Who has ever said any such thing? People have expressed concern that a person in a trusted position has such an hamfisted insensitive understanding of how class operates. You seem proud of it even. And further, that this political idiocy leads the responses to the EDL in an inevitably counter-productive way. I feel sorry for any w/c kids you taught frankly. Your sneering at them probably destroyed what little confidence they mustered up to dare turn up to your (content unspecified) classes - ot they just laughed at you. As in the school as in the political world.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

http://twitpic.com/8agban

Go easy on these guys. That's what being anti liberal means. They could be working class after all.

What's class got to do with it. It's just about the use of (or adequate ability to use) language, right? Oh wait ...

 

[Blagsta]

http://twitpic.com/8agban

Go easy on these guys. That's what being anti liberal means. They could be working class after all.

Talk about missing the point!

 

[manny-p]

http://twitpic.com/8agban

Go easy on these guys. That's what being anti liberal means. They could be working class after all.

Looks like the educated teacher needs to fucking wise up.

 

[SpineyNorman]

http://twitpic.com/8agban

Go easy on these guys. That's what being anti liberal means. They could be working class after all.

You're doing it on purpose aren't you? Just to be clear, you can kill them if you want. I don't care. It's how your words and actions impact on people outside the EDL that I care about.

 

[butchersapron]

Haven't really been following this debate but my own penny's worth is, many working class people leave school with sub standard education, myself included, of those of us who become politically active, on the left we tend to read and debate a lot so we end up educating ourselves and our use of the language improves, on the right they are largely content with with hating and intimidating those who they deem to be not with them, getting drunk and tattooed and rarely try to use debates to further there beliefs so there use of English does not improve, so to cut a long story short, fuck the dumb bastards.

And I am aware that my usage of the words there and their are usually wrong.

Fuck the dumb bastards but don't demand that the rest of the w/c have a knowledge of Elizabethan madrigals before they meet your standards of what counts as proper english person and so have their concerns and the things that drive them counted. I know that you don't but i know that this is where these green party loon who believes in pre-historic spacemen's logic lies.

 

[butchersapron]

This is the thing with liberal fools like taffboi - it's all about their individual disgust and the need to express it in public. Nothing political. Nothing dynamic, nothing about how society works, nothing about the collective nature of stuff. All about them and their need to appear pure.

 

[Deareg]

Fuck the dumb bastards but don't demand that the rest of the w/c have a knowledge of Elizabethan madrigals before they meet your standards of what counts as proper english person and so have their concerns and the things that drive them counted. I know that you don't but i know that this is where these green party loon who believes in pre-historic spacemen's logic lies.

Maybe I should have followed the debate first.

 

[manny-p]

Maybe I should have followed the debat first.

you are clearly edl

 

[butchersapron]

Maybe I should have followed the debat first.

Wouldn't bother mate

 

[Deareg]

you are clearly edl

You were quick off the mark.

 

[john x]

What is the Dispatches programme?

Channel 4's Dispatches, has been following the EDL for the last year. They are getting very excited about it (it goes to air next month) because I suspect they have been told by the producers that it will 'show their side' of the story.

As someone pointed out earlier, Dispatches usually do exposures, so what they are expecting, I've no idea. The best that they can hope for is that the programme goes easy on them and says that they are largely a bunch of disenfranchised fools, who see immigrants as the cause of all their problems.

Either way, I very much doubt they will need to 'buy' another server to cope with the 'million plus' enquiries the morning after the programme.

john x

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Fuck the dumb bastards but don't demand that the rest of the w/c have a knowledge of Elizabethan madrigals before they meet your standards of what counts as proper english person and so have their concerns and the things that drive them counted. I know that you don't but i know that this is where these green party loon who believes in pre-historic spacemen's logic lies.

Butchers. The Elizabethan Madrigals thing was an example of English culture. The EDL claim to defend English culture. I don't believe many of them know a fucking thing about it. It was an example and clearly so. But twisting words is something you have form on. You think it is anti working class to criticise double standards of working class leaders on the conditions of the working classes who make branded sportswear. Speaking up for the working class is a sure fire indicator of hating the working class. Criticising ignorant racists is liberal if they are working class. Well you don't in all likelyhood think these things, but you will act like you think them to make some contorted point. Is that typical of people who back the IWCA?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

This is the thing with liberal fools like taffboi - it's all about their individual disgust and the need to express it in public. Nothing political. Nothing dynamic, nothing about how society works, nothing about the collective nature of stuff. All about them and their need to appear pure.

I've spoken to all of those things here elsewhere, though "dynamic" is more subjective. Liberals let racists off the hook with excuses about stuff like class.

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers. The Elizabethan Madrigals thing was an example of English culture. The EDL claim to defend English culture. I don't believe many of them know a fucking thing about it. It was an example and clearly so. But twisting words is something you have form on. You think it is anti working class to criticise double standards of working class leaders on the conditions of the working classes who make branded sportswear. Speaking up for the working class is a sure fire indicator of hating the working class. Criticising ignorant racists is liberal if they are working class. Well you don't in all likelyhood think these things, but you will act like you think them to make some contorted point. Is that typical of people who back the IWCA?

I have zero idea what you've just tried to say to me.

 

[butchersapron]

I've spoken to all of those things here elsewhere, though "dynamic" is more subjecive. Liberals let racists off the hook with excuses about stuff like class.

Do you? Where have you let people off the hook about racism by mentioning class? If you mean someone else, if you mean me - then where and how. Names, places, you know the drill.

 

[frogwoman]

As said up thread, why so many give heed to Marx and Engels when they were middle class is quite a riddle.

because it's not where you come from - it's where you're going.

 

[butchersapron]

...a large part of it is about where you come from, most people seem to have manged to get beyond that in treating both the EDL and Marks and engles (TM), but not taffboi...

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Do you? Where have you let people off the hook about racism by mentioning class?

That's a very smart technique. You must teach me how to use it some time.

"If you mean someone else, if you mean me - then where and how. Names, places, you know the drill."​

Not you so much. You just think it's anti working class to speak up for the working classes who make branded sportswear, but you seem to think only the working classes wear the stuff.​

Where have people done it? On this thread.​

How? By associating ignorance and racism with being working class. It's weird. .​

We are certainly at the point of diminishing returns on this now for all concerned.​

 

[frogwoman]

...a large part of it is about where you come from, most people seem to have manged to get beyond that in treating both the EDL and Marks and engles (TM), but not taffboi...

totally - wasn't meaning to say otherwise. i meant the whole answer to the question of why don't people attack marx etc for being middle class ...

 

[frogwoman]

and (like on the owen jones thread) WHY certain people get into positions of deciding about "culture" etc ...

 

[butchersapron]

That's a very smart technique. You must teach me how to use it some time.

"If you mean someone else, if you mean me - then where and how. Names, places, you know the drill."​

Not you so much. You just think it's anti working class to speak up for the working classes who make branded sportswear, but you seem to think only the working classes wear the stuff.​

Where have people done it? On this thread.​

How? By associating ignorance and racism with being working class. It's weird. .​

We are certainly at the point of diminishing returns on this now for all concerned.​

I don't, i think it's pathetic counter-productive moralising and finger wagging that means nothing beyond making you feel good to attack bob crow for wearing nike when the RMT is under attack. Much like your contributions here. And i think, no, i know, that it displays a wider distaste for not just the w/c, but everyone else - the misanthropy is dripping off you.

No one has associated being w/c with ignorance and racism apart from you, and weirdly you've tied real englishness it to knowledge of some outdated elite cultural form that displays a total contempt for working class history from below and insists its your version of court history. Tell me about the great english victories on foreign soil or something. There's a reason no on knows or cares about madrigals in the EDL or anywhere else - there's two reasons actually - they're shit and they're nothing to do with us and our lifes. Nor, as becomes increasingly evident, do you.