EDL watch

[Ranbay]

so was it me or the UAF im still confused?

 

[butchersapron]

the UAF and anti-fascist movement

What's this btw? Who do you mean and who argued this? Did their arguments win the day?

 

[Ranbay]

you said i made the EDL grow, not you are saying the UAF did it.....

so im confused like init blud.

 

[Delroy Booth]

That's what i asked you for though and what you said that you had already provided.No these nothing reasons And your chronology is shot to fuck-the BNP were not split as now in may 2009.

Oh yes they fucking were! I even remember being at a debate in about August 2009 where the main topic we discussed was "are the BNP turning into the EDL" and during that debate all the internal squabbles that were going on in the BNP were discussed as one of the reasons why the EDL was gaining support. These splits, which are now reaching their peak, were years in the making. They did not just suddenly come about after the General Election y'know. Everyone in the anti-fascist movement I knew was well aware that Griffin was looting his parties treasury, and we knew it then I'm betting more intelligent and politically aware BNP members would also have known it. Just because they had a small measure of electoral success during this period does not mean they were any less of a dysfunctional party full of cranks and nutters. For example, the business with Jim Dowson and all that money that was owed for printing was going on long before the United People's of Luton march, as was documented by Searchlight at the time. And don't you remember the big split that happened in the North West just before this? They were calling themselves the Real BNP for a while, and loads of really entertaining blogs were popping up accusing Nick Griffin of allsorts of stuff. Incidentally this is where those hilarious pictures of Martyn Reynolds shagging those two horrorbags originate from.

Odd that you would argue that media coverage helped build the EDL whilst arguing that your own media coverage did not. Can you square that circle delroy?

Easily. The Daily Mail has a circulation of 3,000,000+ which puts it in an entirely different league to "our media" which, funnily enough, you didn't specify. Are you seriously suggesting that Socialist Worker played a more significant role in the development of the EDL than the Daily Mail? If the vast majority of anti-fascists are indifferent to the views of the SWP on this issue then why exactly would the fash give a shit? Also, what exactly counts ss "our media" and how does it compare in terms of power and influence to Lord Rothermere's hate-rag? The idea that the United Peoples of Luton march got little or no media coverage is delusion. There was even a segment on Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe dedicated to analyzing the coverage of that event. It was a massive news story and I remember it at the time.

I didn't say that. What's wrong with you?I said that the UAF response helped the growth of the EDL - it gave them easy group solidarity and the veneer of real politics. Again with the daily mail,and again with ignoring the point that this means that EDL 'activists' live and produce a non-edl world. Tackle that world,the conditions that produce the EDL.

Incidentally, you've just proven my point.

You're getting a bit incoherent now, clinging onto this position despite it being utterly indefensible. The UAF response, even if it did provide them with a sense of easy group solidarity, did little or nothing at all in the grand scheme of things to promote their. I also think that even if the UAD didn't exist, they'd just find any kind of left-wing group and use them as a scapegoat. I also think that their "group solidiarity" is far easier to attribute to the loyalties that exists within hooligan "firms" than it does with commonly opposing the UAF.

Now, you're getting tiresome, and either come to me with some proper evidence, of any kind, that the UAF did anything to encourage the EDL, beyond just repetitive theorising, and I'll reply to it, but otherwise this conversation is over.

 

[malatesta32]

Latest 'Malatesta' - The Last Gasp of the EDL?
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/the-last-gasp-of-the-edl/

 

[Ranbay]

Latest 'Malatesta' - The Last Gasp of the EDL?
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/the-last-gasp-of-the-edl/

Not if we keep posting in this thread it's not

 

[butchersapron]

Oh yes they fucking were! I even remember being at a debate in about August 2009 where the main topic we discussed was "are the BNP turning into the EDL" and during that debate all the internal squabbles that were going on in the BNP were discussed as one of the reasons why the EDL was gaining support. These splits, which are now reaching their peak, were years in the making. They did not just suddenly come about after the General Election y'know. Everyone in the anti-fascist movement I knew was well aware that Griffin was looting his parties treasury, and we knew it the more intelligent and politically aware BNP members would also have known it. Just because they had a small measure of electoral success during this period does not mean they were any less of a dysfunctional party full of cranks and nutters. For example, the business with Jim Dowson and all that money that was owed for printing was going on long before the United People's of Luton march, as was documented by Searchlight at the time.

In the anti-fascist imagination the BNP have always been splitting.May 2009 to july 2009 was the absolute high point of BNP unity. Those who wanted to do street stuff had been expelled, excluded or been made politically irrelevant 5 years before this. There was no leaving of the party in disgust into the EDL and street movements. There was the opposite, street fighers (want to be) were flocking into the BNP. The printing stuff came out of Griffins general election campaign in Barking in 2010. You're just wrong here.

Easily. The Daily Mail has a circulation of 3,000,000+ which puts it in an entirely different league to "our media" which, funnily enough, you didn't specify. Are you seriously suggesting that Socialist Worker played a more significant role in the development of the EDL than the Daily Mail? If the vast majority of anti-fascists are indifferent to the views of the SWP on this issue then why exactly would the fash give a shit? Also, what exactly counts ss "our media" and how does it compare in terms of power and influence to Lord Rothermere's hate-rag? The idea that the United Peoples of Luton march got little or no media coverage is delusion. There was even a segment on Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe dedicated to analyzing the coverage of that event. It was a massive news story and I remember it at the time.

I do like these sort of questions "are you suggesting *insert daft scenario here* ? Yes i am delroy, yes i am. Right,first off,if you think the edl reads the mail you're wrong, if you think people do what the papers say then you're wrong, if you think the mail gave or gives a shit about the EDL then you're wrong, if you think that the culture that people produce and live in is quite important then you, for once, are right.Which is why this EDL obsession is so pointless. Well done on the Daily mail as a haterag and charlie brooker in the same para. It's quite nice heben isn'tit?

You're getting a bit incoherent now, clinging onto this position despite it being utterly indefensible. The UAF response, even if it did provide them with a sense of easy group solidarity, did little or nothing at all in the grand scheme of things to promote their. I also think that even if the UAD didn't exist, they'd just find any kind of left-wing group and use them as a scapegoat. I also think that their "group solidiarity" is far easier to attribute to the loyalties that exists within hooligan "firms" than it does with commonly opposing the UAF.

Now, you're getting tiresome, and either come to me with some proper evidence, of any kind, that the UAF did anything to encourage the EDL, beyond just repetitive theorising, and I'll reply to it, but otherwise this conversation is over.

Incoherent? Come on, do you want a political argument or not?

 

[butchersapron]

Stop answering me!

 

[Delroy Booth]

In the anti-fascist imagination the BNP have always been splitting.May 2009 to july 2009 was the absolute high point of BNP unity. Those who wanted to do street stuff had been expelled, excluded or been made politically irrelevant 5 years before this. There was no leaving of the party in disgust into the EDL and street movements. There was the opposite, street fighers (want to be) were flocking into the BNP. The printing stuff came out of Griffins general election campaign in Barking in 2010. You're just wrong here.

Just for clarification, the Euro elections in 2009 was when i first became aware of the printing stuff, although it had been going on much longer before hand. The appointment of Clive Jefferson as treasurer was purely to stop this from getting out, so concerned were they by it. it didn't get huge prominence until after Barking but I assure you this was all going on long before the EDL had formed. It was going on before even Jim Dowson had got involved aswell. And yes there was a steady stream of activists leaving the BNP because they were smart enough to see where it was all heading, Stephen Lennon being one of them, but there were plenty of others. I saw it with my own eyes, the number of ex-BNP who turned out in Manchester, Leeds and Bolton was very high, I spent the whole day going "fuck me, it's so-and-so, he used to be regional organiser" there were that many of them. Fucking hell we used to pay people in the BNP for information about stuff like this, going right back to about 2006, and it was clear for all to see these fault-lines were ready to go as soon as the parties momentum faltered. so it's pretty funny when you try saying it didn't happen!

I don't know who you are or what you do in terms of anti-fascism, but if your seriously suggesting that if we had done nothing the EDL would've just fizzled out then you're kidding yourself, furthermore if you're advocating that we today ought to ignore them and hope they go away then your counsel simply isn't needed. If that's how you feel then you're better off away from anti-fascism altogether.

 

[Ranbay]

yeah

 

[butchersapron]

Just for clarification, the Euro elections in 2009 was when i first became aware of the printing stuff, although it had been going on much longer before hand. The appointment of Clive Jefferson as treasurer was purely to stop this from getting out, so concerned were they by it. it didn't get huge prominence until after Barking but I assure you this was all going on long before the EDL had formed. It was going on before even Jim Dowson had got involved aswell. And yes there was a steady stream of activists leaving the BNP because they were smart enough to see where it was all heading, Stephen Lennon being one of them, but there were plenty of others. I saw it with my own eyes, the number of ex-BNP who turned out in Manchester, Leeds and Bolton was very high, I spent the whole day going "fuck me, it's so-and-so, he used to be regional organiser" there were that many of them. Fucking hell we used to pay people in the BNP for information about stuff like this, going right back to about 2006, and it was clear for all to see these fault-lines were ready to go as soon as the parties momentum faltered. so it's pretty funny when you try saying it didn't happen!

I don't know who you are or what you do in terms of anti-fascism, but if your seriously suggesting that if we had done nothing the EDL would've just fizzled out then you're kidding yourself, furthermore if you're advocating that we today ought to ignore them and hope they go away then your counsel simply isn't needed. If that's how you feel then you're better off away from anti-fascism altogether.

When you say became aware of you mean read it in searchlight don't you? Clive Jefferson became treasurer last year not in 2009. Is this the sort of info that you 'paid for'?

Lennon was never anything in the BNP, none of the people who became the EDL centre meant anything in the BNP -they were not even on the radar.And yes,the far right turn out for far right rallies.You'll never believe how many lefties i saw on that lefty demo.

I suggest that you read the posts that you're replying to - the ones that lay out my argument rather than the easily dismissed fantasy that you'd like them to be. Stay away from anti-fascism I love you people.

 

[malatesta32]

i think the point that butchers is getting at isn't that locals shouldnt oppose the fash, or that they aren't violent etc. It's that the UAF etc through their responses and through the playing up of the threat (when there had been many such attempts at creating an EDL type movement previously) helped to give the EDL more publicity, as well as giving them a "threat" to oppose directly. A threat which was seen as coming into the communities to oppose them, rather than coming from those communities iyswim.

I would also add that the obsession with revealing the BNP etc's "nazi links" led directly to a fash group like the EDL which consciously distanced itself from neo-Nazism (or tried to, anyway) and adopted zionism, and even tried to recruit among Sikh etc communities, with some success.

frogs, i think with the UAF there is the 'searchlight job creation' aspect too (likewise plod and MI5 amplifying 'political threats' to gullible MPs). the professional antifascist is on a salary as opposed to militant antifascists doing what we can in our spare time. i am sure larry o hara would have something to say on this as he is spot on with gable and C18 (in turning up the heat etc). you out there lar?

 

[Delroy Booth]

When you say became aware of you mean read it in searchlight don't you? Clive Jefferson became treasurer last year not in 2009. Is this the sort of info that you 'paid for'?

I didn't say that he did! I said that he was appointed to attempt to cover up these kinds of things that had been going on previously, it was done as a result of the internal bickering about BNP finances that had been going on at the time. Remember that picture of Nick Griffin's jacuzzi that one of their disgruntled members put on that blog? They all knew that Griffin was on the rob, even back then, and a lot of their more competent activsts left during this period, even despite their electoral successes. Mark Collett was another one, he was robbing 'em blind going way back, his penchant for fine dining and his BMW was greatly resented by the membership of Leeds BNP, and many left the party due to the cronyism that led to him being put in that position.

Lennon was never anything in the BNP, none of the people who became the EDL centre meant anything in the BNP -they were not even on the radar.And yes,the far right turn out for far right rallies.You'll never believe how many lefties i saw on that lefty demo.

Lennon himself wasn't anything much, although nothing is overstating it, after all even the BNP's membership list had him down as an activist, rather than just a lay member. He was an active BNP member, along with many others now in the EDL. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I suggest that you read the posts that you're replying to - the ones that lay out my argument rather than the easily dismissed fantasy that you'd like them to be. Stay away from anti-fascism I love you people.

Stay away from anti-fascism please, telling people to do nothing in the face of the EDL is really a lot more damaging. We need unity, and we need concerted action, not this muddle-headed cowardly "leave them alone and they'll just stop hating muslims" shtick that you're pushing here.

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't say that he did! I said that he was appointed to attempt to cover up these kinds of things that had been going on previously, it was done as a result of the internal bickering about BNP finances that had been going on at the time. Remember that picture of Nick Griffin's jacuzzi that one of their disgruntled members put on that blog? They all knew that Griffin was on the rob, even back then, and a lot of their more competent activsts left during this period, even despite their electoral successes. Mark Collett was another one, he was robbing 'em blind going way back, his penchant for fine dining and his BMW was greatly resented by the membership of Leeds BNP, and many left the party due to the cronyism that led to him being put in that position.

You kn ow the problem with taking right-wing competitors views as gospel don't you? Maybe not,the EDL gossip suggests that you don't. How many of this stram of competent activists joined the EDL? Name them.

Lennon himself wasn't anything much, although nothing is overstating it, after all even the BNP's membership list had him down as an activist, rather than just a lay member. He was an active BNP member, along with many others now in the EDL. That's the point I'm trying to make.

So name the at least mid level people BNP who went into the EDL. (wants: a geuine answer.Gets: a load of fat cunts with shit tats) [/quote]

Stay away from anti-fascism please, telling people to do nothing in the face of the EDL is really a lot more damaging. We need unity, and we need concerted action, not this muddle-headed cowardly "leave them alone and they'll just stop hating muslims" shtick that you're pushing here.

You are a genius.

 

[malatesta32]

Fucking right - and with that there's a militant responsibility to think about how your opposition impacts on more people than yourself. A responsibility to think tactically, to think critically and not to cheerlead. The argument is not over whether to oppose the EDL or not but how and why.

i think turning up to oppose them when they arrive in yr town and simultaneously countering their lies when and wherever possible is a good start. it saps their morale when opponents massively outnumber them and acts almost as good as a slap. expose their lies: being racists/fascists was exposed constantly; against extremism? no against muslims as shown by all the racist chanting that was recorded and insults they posted on the net; not BNP? tommy never mentioned the photo of him and edmonds but it dented their not-BNP stance; peaceful protest - hardly, their violence and arrests on and off demos is well publicised by mainstream and alt media; all the racist outbursts and infighting on facebook and elsewhere are well documented on various sites.

 

[butchersapron]

Who is this 'we' delroy?

 

[frogwoman]

I didn't say that he did! I said that he was appointed to attempt to cover up these kinds of things that had been going on previously, it was done as a result of the internal bickering about BNP finances that had been going on at the time. Remember that picture of Nick Griffin's jacuzzi that one of their disgruntled members put on that blog? They all knew that Griffin was on the rob, even back then, and a lot of their more competent activsts left during this period, even despite their electoral successes. Mark Collett was another one, he was robbing 'em blind going way back, his penchant for fine dining and his BMW was greatly resented by the membership of Leeds BNP, and many left the party due to the cronyism that led to him being put in that position.

Lennon himself wasn't anything much, although nothing is overstating it, after all even the BNP's membership list had him down as an activist, rather than just a lay member. He was an active BNP member, along with many others now in the EDL. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Stay away from anti-fascism please, telling people to do nothing in the face of the EDL is really a lot more damaging. We need unity, and we need concerted action, not this muddle-headed cowardly "leave them alone and they'll just stop hating muslims" shtick that you're pushing here.

Why is "unity" with the people who help to create the conditions for the far right and fascism to develop important to prevent the growth of fascism?

 

[Delroy Booth]

You kn ow the problem with taking right-wing competitors views as gospel don't you? Maybe not,the EDL gossip suggests that you don't. How many of this stram of competent activists joined the EDL? Name them.

No. Firstly, coz funnily enough I don't have extensive lists of them, and secondly because I can't be arsed, it's immaterial. If you're interested though, Oldham and Rochdale BNP branches were out in force in Manchester, along with a fair few from Salford who have since left. I don't think Oldham's even got a functioning BNP branch anymore.

You are a genius.

You are the one blaming the growth of the EDL on the UAF. Is there an synonym for stupid than can describe this idea properly?

 

[butchersapron]

i think turning up to oppose them when they arrive in yr town and simultaneously countering their lies when and wherever possible is a good start. it saps their morale when opponents massively outnumber them and acts almost as good as a slap. expose their lies: being racists/fascists was exposed constantly; against extremism? no against muslims as shown by all the racist chanting that was recorded and insults they posted on the net; not BNP? tommy never mentioned the photo of him and edmonds but it dented their not-BNP stance; peaceful protest - hardly, their violence and arrests on and off demos is well publicised by mainstream and alt media; all the racist outbursts and infighting on facebook and elsewhere are well documented on various sites.

Is turning them into something that they're not and no power of becoming a good start? Is obsession a good start? If so where does it end? People running around on facebook copying screengrabs. Shit mobile phone vids of fuck all. This isn't anti-fascism. Give it up.

You say your town,not my town.There's a difference there isn't there? How did the UAF do it? Did they bus people to other towns? I can oppose shit without becoming obsessed by it. The only people slapping the EDL after brum is the police.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Why is "unity" with the people who help to create the conditions for the far right and fascism to develop important to prevent the growth of fascism?

Who do you mean by the people who help to create the conditions for the far right and fascism to develop?

 

[frogwoman]

Who do you mean by the people who help to create the conditions for the far right and fascism to develop?

"anyone but the bnp" leaflets at election time, having david cameron and various tories and nu-labourites on your list of signatories, etc

 

[butchersapron]

No. Firstly, coz funnily enough I don't have extensive lists of them, and secondly because I can't be arsed, it's immaterial. If you're interested though, Oldham and Rochdale BNP branches were out in force in Manchester, along with a fair few from Salford who have since left. I don't think Oldham's even got a functioning BNP branch anymore.

You demand, post after post, that i provide evidence yet you 'can't be arsed'? Wow,so a few far right people went to the sort of far right event that far right people go to and this is evidence of competent BNP activists leaving for the EDL? Beef your argument up.

You are the one blaming the growth of the EDL on the UAF. Is there an synonym for stupid than can describe this idea properly?

Lat para:closely argued as ever delroy.

 

[Delroy Booth]

"anyone but the bnp" leaflets at election time, having david cameron and various tories and nu-labourites on your list of signatories, etc

Yeah well you've just listed a load reasons the UAF are absolute shit, and reason I dont see eye-to-eye with them on these matters. Does that mean that I shouldn't be prepared to work with the UAF when needs be? In fairness they've grassed me up to the police before now, you don't need to tell me what they're like.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah well you've just listed a load reasons the UAF are absolute shit, and reason I dont see eye-to-eye with them on these matters. Does that mean that I shouldn't be prepared to work with the UAF when needs be? In fairness they've grassed me up to the police before now, you don't need to tell me what they're like.

For paying BNP members for info in 2006?

 

[frogwoman]

Does that mean that I shouldn't be prepared to work with the UAF when needs be?

no, not at all. I don't think that the UAF help create the "conditions", but they're happy to line up with people that do

you asked "what do you mean by the people who help create the conditions for fascism and the far-right to develop" and i answered. i think "unity" in these matters is overrated.

 

[malatesta32]

Is turning them into something that they're not and no power of becoming a good start? Is obsession a good start? If so where does it end? People running around on facebook copying screengrabs. Shit mobile phone vids of fuck all. This isn't anti-fascism. Give it up.

You say your town,not my town.There's a difference there isn't there? How did the UAF do it? Did they bus people to other towns? I can oppose shit without becoming obsessed by it. The only people slapping the EDL after brum is the police.

i think militant antifascists are very wary of these gangs invading their towns and large scale opposition works. i wd recite the hitler 'only street opposition cd stop us ...' but cant remember it! in my town this has certainly been the case: the EDL were massively outnumbered, delayed from marching for hours, kettled in, humiliated etc. they did it once 3 years ago, failed, tried again 2 years ago, failed better. aint been back since. propaganda is also vital, 'countering the arguments' (SWP!) and exposing their 'nationalism' for the fascism it actually is: see wayne baldwin, simon biggs, liam pinkam and loads of others.

 

[audiotech]

frogs, i think with the UAF there is the 'searchlight job creation' aspect too (likewise plod and MI5 amplifying 'political threats' to gullible MPs). the professional antifascist is on a salary as opposed to militant antifascists doing what we can in our spare time. i am sure larry o hara would have something to say on this as he is spot on with gable and C18 (in turning up the heat etc). you out there lar?

Not only that ^, but also as Orwell pointed out intellectuals cheat, that is if they talk enough about danger then maybe the danger can be avoided.

However, and importantly it's clear to all but the most dogged sectarians that this is happening right now with the growth of the far-right in Europe. We're not quite at a tipping point yet where all is lost.

 

[Delroy Booth]

You demand, post after post, that i provide evidence yet you 'can't be arsed'? Wow,so a few far right people went to the sort of far right event that far right people go to and this is evidence of competent BNP activists leaving for the EDL? Beef your argument up.

I'm still waiting for you to come up with any kind of material evidence whatsoever that the UAF are responsible for the early growth of the EDL. I'm not going to oblige you by going answer these questions until you do me the courtesy of answering mine which came first.

The idea that the UAF helped create a state of hysteria over the EDL, which in turn boosted the appeal of the EDL to soft-racists and fascists, pre-supposes that the UAF is actually capable of having that kind of influence, which they simply are not. Outside of the left, the UAF's and anti-fascist media's influence is non-existent, so its laughable that you think they somehow encouraged the EDL in their early formation. Half of these kids who've got involved in the EDL don't even know the SWP exists, and yet somehow you're telling me that the SWP/UAF's anti-racism is the primary motivating factor behind them getting involved in this? It's ridiculous. Then, to top this off, when given 3 pretty simply and straightforward alternative theories as to why the EDL have grown in the way they have, you demand that I "name names" (lol) in order to back this up, demanding from me a level of detail and evidence that you are completely incapable of giving for your own argument.

How about you make some small degree of effort to back up these fancilful claims of yours, show some kind of evidence which can prove the UAF played the primary role in the development and growth of the early EDL, then I might be inclinedto give you some names. And for the record, I don't know the names of all the ex-BNP members and activists who are now in the EDL, most of them aren't high-level organizers as you well know, they're middle-ranking lay activists and random BNP types, people who I know as much my face as by name. Do you think I'm sat on huge and comprehensive lists of names or something? Get real.

 

[audiotech]

Who is this 'we' delroy?

You're not helping Mr I'm always right with large, obstinate head.

 

[malatesta32]

Not only that ^, but also as Orwell pointed out intellectuals cheat, that is if they talk enough about danger then maybe the danger can be avoided.

However, and importantly it's clear to all but the most dogged sectarians that this is happening right now with the growth of the far-right in Europe. We're are not quite at a tipping point yet where all is lost.

hello techy! this is going on over on the european fascism thread too!