EDL watch

[Delroy Booth]

I claimed no such thing - that's a shocking twist of my words.

The EDL were born out of the various responses in luton, responses which happened well before your chronology even begins. You simply got it wrong.

My claim (the real one) is that your and others hysterical reaction at that time did exactly what the EDL wanted,you did the only thing that would have allowed them to live, you facilitated what pathetic violence they're managed to produce. As we told you at the time.

You're talking some utter shite here. What evidence have you to suggest that the reaction to the United People's of Luton protest "put the wind in their sails" of the EDL? The publicity that we gave to the EDL by discussing how to oppose them is next to nothing compared to the publicity and promotion right-wing newspapers and other media gave to them, is that our fault too? Even if we'd have all self-consciously ignored and downplayed any mention of those events, I still believe the EDL would've been formed regardless. I think the growth of the organization was down to the realisation amongst many that the electoral strategy of the BNP was failing, after all Kev Carroll, Chris Renton and Stephen Lennon are all ex BNP actvists, so many decided to return to the streets, and secondly because of the funding that the likes of Alan Lake and the Centre for Vigilant Justice gave to them in the period between Brum and Manchester demos, quite early on in their formation. Absolutely nothing we have said or done would've made any difference to this sequence of events, so I'm totally perplexed by the stuff you're coming out with.

 

[butchersapron]

My intention is not to misrepresent you and if I have I apologise, but you are claiming that the EDL are not a threat to Muslim communities and are best ignored. That opposing them and counter demonstrating against them just gives them attention and feeds their growth. I disagree with this and have argued that for communities under attack by their thugs the option of ignoring them is not a luxury they can afford

I have claimed no such thing - again.I've argued that the response that you favour is the best gift anyone can give them. I've not said that they shouldn't be 'confronted' by locals. I've argued, and have done since Luton, that bussing in lefties to counte-protests and spending the time inbetween by whipping up hysteria about pogroms is counter-productive and gives them exactly what they want.

 

[Ranbay]

this thread made the EDL FACT

 

[butchersapron]

You're talking some utter shite here. What evidence have you to suggest that the reaction to the United People's of Luton protest "put the wind in their sails" of the EDL? The publicity that we gave to the EDL by discussing how to oppose them is next to nothing compared to the publicity and promotion right-wing newspapers and other media gave to them, is that our fault too? Even if we'd have all self-consciously ignored and downplayed any mention of those events, I still believe the EDL would've been formed regardless. I think the growth of the organization was down to the realisation amongst many that the electoral strategy of the BNP was failing, after all Kev Carroll, Chris Renton and Stephen Lennon are all ex BNP actvists, so many decided to return to the streets, and secondly because of the funding that the likes of Alan Lake and the Centre for Vigilant Justice gave to them in the period between Brum and Manchester demos, quite early on in their formation. Absolutely nothing we have said or done would've made any difference to this sequence of events, so I'm totally perplexed by the stuff you're coming out with.

What evidence do i have of their growth in that period? Well, their growth for starters. And their lack of growth in the prior period when failing to get the UBU and all that bollocks off the ground, when coincidentally, the left weren't talking about the white terror to come.

And no,the EDL was formed at the absolute highpoint of the BNP electoral strategy. You are genuinely perplexed aren't you?

 

[butchersapron]

this thread made the EDL FACT

It's nothing to with this shit thread bob. People were talking about the possible fallouts of the responses to luton a year before this thread. It's to do with general real-life responses and their consequences. You know...politics.

 

[Delroy Booth]

What evidence do i have of their growth in that period?

No, that isn't what I asked you. try again.

What evidence have you to suggest that the reaction to the United People's of Luton protest "put the wind in their sails" of the EDL?

I am asking you what evidence do you have that the left wing response to the EDL was responsible for their growth. For a start, to even accept such a concept, you have to give to the left a degree of influence far greater than they actually have.

As far as I'm concered the EDL would've formed regardless of our attempts to whip up "hysteria" against them. Also, the EDL may have formed at the high point of the BNP, but is it not the case it did not grow into what it is now until after the BNP had begun to self-destuct. Again, I'd suggest that the collapse of the BNP had a much greater infuence on their growth and organization than anything we ever did.

 

[Ranbay]

It's nothing to with this shit thread bob. People were talking about the possible fallouts of the responses to luton a year before this thread. It's to do with general real-life responses and their consequences. You know...politics.

Make your fucking mind up yesterday i made the EDL becuase i posted in this thread.

 

[butchersapron]

No, that isn't what I asked you. try again.

I am asking you what evidence do you have that the left wing response to the EDL was responsible for their growth. For a start, to even accept such a concept, you have to give to the left a degree of influence far greater than they actually have.

As far as I'm concered the EDL would've formed regardless of our attempts to whip up "hysteria" against them. Also, the EDL may have formed at the high point of the BNP, but is it not the case it did not grow into what it is now until after the BNP had begun to self-destuct. Again, I'd suggest that the collapse of the BNP had a much greater infuence on their growth and organization than anything we ever did.

Make your mind up delroy. Are you talking about them being formed or their growth post-luton? Themm being formed was the latest in a long line of failed attempts dating back to the immediate month after 9/11. Them being formed is irrelevant as these people were trying for donkeys years before. What is relevant is why this attempt stuck, and that's - at least in part - because the UAF (abetted by people like you) whipped up a hysteria that allowed the EDL to draw together a bunch of people who wanted a ruck, to draw together the EDL, to make the EDL. You gave them everything they could ever have wished for. And today you do secret squirrel on facebook

 

[butchersapron]

Make your fucking mind up yesterday i made the EDL becuase i posted in this thread.

Did i bob? Did i?

 

[Ranbay]

yeah was like after i had my Pizza or something, then you got all shitty about it and went to bed, fair dos you said like night night and stuff.... but it's not like how it used to be, we never realy "talk" anymore... maybe we are just growing apart?

 

[butchersapron]

It's my birthday today bob, one last chance to sort it out...

 

[butchersapron]

Here the orginal luton thread from may 2009 for anyone interested.

 

[TruXta]

It's my birthday today bob, one last chance to sort it out...

Really? In which case, happy birthday you old curmudgeon!

 

[butchersapron]

Really? In which case, happy birthday you old curmudgeon!

Thank you truxta. But it ain't.

 

[TruXta]

Thank you truxta. But it ain't.

Well fuck you then!

 

[Delroy Booth]

Make your mind up delroy. Are you talking about them being formed or their growth post-luton? Themm being formed was the latest in a long line of failed attempts dating back to the immediate month after 9/11. Them being formed is irrelevant as these people were trying for donkeys years before. What is relevant is why this attempt stuck, and that's - at least in part - because the UAF (abetted by people like you) whipped up a hysteria that allowed the EDL to draw together a bunch of people who wanted a ruck, to draw together the EDL, to make the EDL. You gave them everything they could ever have wished for. And today you do secret squirrel on facebook

I'm talking about their growth post-Luton. You're asking some good questions, why exactly did this attempt stick where others have failed, but your answers are a joke. I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate to me a scrap of evidence that it was our response, rather than the other wider political factors that I and others here have mentioned, that was responsible for their growth.

In all honestly blaming the UAF for the growth of the EDL is the height of stupidity, and the only people I've ever met who've come out with such drivel are members of obscure left-wing sects whose motivation seems to be to attack the SWP at all costs, regardless of whether or not they've actually done anything wrong in this instance. I'm not saying that's you, I wouldn't presume your intent for a moment, but the company you are in when making this argument is revealing.

I think the first hurdle your theory falls down at is the for it to be right you'd have to massively overestimate the extent to which the UAF could effectively influence the wider public's response to the EDL. I remember helping to organize the counter-protest to the EDL in Bolton and Manchester for example, and when canvassing the overwhelming mood of the general public in both those places just prior to the EDL's arrival was not one of hysteria, but of ignorance and apathy. Another point where your theory fails is that you fail to put it into any context. Even if you were right, and the UAF's response to the EDL acted as a form of encouragement rather than deterrent, it is surely next to nothing compared to the impact the internal war in the BNP had, or the way in which they were subtly promoted by the Daily Mail and Telegraph, who gave them mainly uncritical blanket coverage from the initial Luton demo onwards.

Oh and btw I'm not in the UAF or SWP, they really don't like me at all as it happens, so lets get that one out of the way before it comes up, k?

 

[Ranbay]

I went to counter the EDL as me, and family, not as the UAF KLF or the MFI.....

as did many others.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I went to counter the EDL as me, and family, not as the UAF KLF or the MFI.....

as did many others.

Likewise me. And I don't remember going there because I was whipped up into a hysterical frenzy by someone either, I went because, on principle, I could no abide the idea of these fascist goons stomping about my city unchallenged. But, clearly, that attitude is the blame for their success.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm talking about their growth post-Luton. You're asking some good questions, why exactly did this attempt stick where others have failed, but your answers are a joke. I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate to me a scrap of evidence that it was our response, rather than the other wider political factors that I and others here have mentioned, that was responsible for their growth.

In all honestly blaming the UAF for the growth of the EDL is the height of stupidity, and the only people I've ever met who've come out with such drivel are members of obscure left-wing sects whose motivation seems to be to attack the SWP at all costs, regardless of whether or not they've actually done anything wrong in this instance. I'm not saying that's you, I wouldn't presume your intent for a moment, but the company you are in when making this argument is revealing.

I think the first hurdle your theory falls down at is the for it to be right you'd have to massively overestimate the extent to which the UAF could effectively influence the wider public's response to the EDL. I remember helping to organize the counter-protest to the EDL in Bolton and Manchester for example, and when canvassing the overwhelming mood of the general public in both those places just prior to the EDL's arrival was not one of hysteria, but of ignorance and apathy. Another point where your theory fails is that you fail to put it into any context. Even if you were right, and the UAF's response to the EDL acted as a form of encouragement rather than deterrent, it is surely next to nothing compared to the impact the internal war in the BNP had, or the way in which they were subtly promoted by the Daily Mail and Telegraph, who gave them mainly uncritical blanket coverage from the initial Luton demo onwards.

Oh and btw I'm not in the UAF or SWP, they really don't like me at all as it happens, so lets get that one out of the way before it comes up, k?

Right, one more time. The UAF and fellow travelers like you had a a range of possible responses post-luton. The one you chose helped the EDL - if they were growing because of objective conditions (you suggest this is the case but fail to say these other conditions were and how they worked) you helped that growth by building them up into the sort of thing that young right-wingers should be involved with rather than the same old faces.

You also assume for some reason that i'm on about response from the general public to your response, i'm not - i'm on about the consolidating effects on the fractured far-right and soft racists. You helped bring the elements who had rejected the BNPs road together. This happened. You've spent the last two years documenting how the EDL brought together the far-right and sought to draw in wider parts of the community through a cultural based front. I dread tothiunk how mnay words you've wasted demonstrating this plain obvious fact - how many are you going to waste now denying it?

 

[butchersapron]

Likewise me. And I don't remember going there because I was whipped up into a hysterical frenzy by someone either, I went because, on principle, I could no abide the idea of these fascist goons stomping about my city unchallenged. But, clearly, that attitude is the blame for their success.

Not all about you delroy, or you bob, or what motivated your individual opposition.

 

[malatesta32]

Tommy got a new house out if it anyways.

aye, but he wont be living in it for long bob!

 

[Ranbay]

I argued that at the start of this they would die if left alone, as other similar ventures had done over the last decade. What brought them to life was attention of the sort of bollocks on this thread. But you didn't,and you helped make this.Your time would have been better spent elsewhere.

^ so i made the EDL grow yesterday but today it's not about me? make your fucking mind up FFS.

 

[Delroy Booth]

(you suggest this is the case but fail to say these other conditions were and how they worked)

Well try reading my posts again then coz I most certainly have.

You helped bring the elements who had rejected the BNPs road together. This happened.

Again, for the third time, do you have any evidence whatsoever of this, or it just a theory that you hope if you repeat, ad nauseam, it will stick? What influence does UAF have on these "soft-racists" compared to the influence that the Daily Mail has, for example? Negligible to fuck all I think you'll find. And I when I refer to the wider public, I include soft-racists and anti-muslim bigots as part of that public, and it was a demographic that in my experience couldn't give a shit what the UAF think or do.

 

[malatesta32]

opposing the edl is not only because of them being racist, it is also because many people dont want fascist gangs marching thru their towns causing havoc and landing them with a large policing bill and generally pretending to speka for them. racism is only 1 part of fascism, the EDL are also anti occupy/anti cuts movement/student demos and union acitivism and some are pro-NF/BNP etc. see saturday in newcastle for more links. i oppose them not because im a 'muzzie lover' but because i am an antifascist.

 

[malatesta32]

Thank you truxta. But it ain't.

good job you confessed, i almost legged it to the kitchen to bake you a cake. any more false birthday claims and you're going on report butchers!

 

[butchersapron]

Well try reading my posts again then coz I most certainly have.

Maybe i'm being slow then. Could you repeat them or point me to them>

Again, for the third time, do you have any evidence whatsoever of this, or it just a theory that you hope if you repeat, ad nauseam, it will stick? What influence does UAF have on these "soft-racists" compared to the influence that the Daily Mail has, for example? Negligible to fuck all I think you'll find. And I when I refer to the wider public, I include soft-racists and anti-muslim bigots as part of that public, and it was a demographic that in my experience couldn't give a shit what the UAF think or do.

What sort of evidence would you like? I can give you my impressions of what would happen if a particular path was taken under given conmftions and my predicted outcome happening. What harder evidence do you have? Could you have.

Well, the UAF was used as an easily identifiable thing we're against (regardless of knowledge of what they stand for). Identity a few key enemies - ABV of building a group and group solidarity. I have no idea why you mention the daily mail, are you suggesting that there's a wider culture which people produce and live in? Blimey, maybe, just maybe that's the why the EDL obsession is so pointless and counter-productive? What you think?

 

[frogwoman]

opposing the edl is not only because of them being racist, it is also because many people dont want fascist gangs marching thru their towns causing havoc and landing them with a large policing bill and generally pretending to speka for them. racism is only 1 part of fascism, the EDL are also anti occupy/anti cuts movement/student demos and union acitivism and some are pro-NF/BNP etc. see saturday in newcastle for more links. i oppose them not because im a 'muzzie lover' but because i am an antifascist.

i think the point that butchers is getting at isn't that locals shouldnt oppose the fash, or that they aren't violent etc. It's that the UAF etc through their responses and through the playing up of the threat (when there had been many such attempts at creating an EDL type movement previously) helped to give the EDL more publicity, as well as giving them a "threat" to oppose directly. A threat which was seen as coming into the communities to oppose them, rather than coming from those communities iyswim.

I would also add that the obsession with revealing the BNP etc's "nazi links" led directly to a fash group like the EDL which consciously distanced itself from neo-Nazism (or tried to, anyway) and adopted zionism, and even tried to recruit among Sikh etc communities, with some success.

 

[butchersapron]

opposing the edl is not only because of them being racist, it is also because many people dont want fascist gangs marching thru their towns causing havoc and landing them with a large policing bill and generally pretending to speka for them. racism is only 1 part of fascism, the EDL are also anti occupy/anti cuts movement/student demos and union acitivism and some are pro-NF/BNP etc. see saturday in newcastle for more links. i oppose them not because im a 'muzzie lover' but because i am an antifascist.

Fucking right - and with that there's a militant responsibility to think about how your opposition impacts on more people than yourself. A responsibility to think tactically, to think critically and not to cheerlead. The argument is not over whether to oppose the EDL or not but how and why.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Maybe i'm being slow then. Could you repeat them or point me to them>

Slow, or just deliberately obtuse? So far I've mentioned

- Internal fighting in the BNP leading to many key activists leaving and giving up on electoral politics altogether
- Huge publicity from the right-wing media and tabloid press
- Large amounts of money from Alan Lake et al

These are just straight off the top of my head, I'm not even touching the more complex socio-economic and cultural reasons that people may have for wanting to join the EDL.

What sort of evidence would you like?

Any at all would do.

I can give you my impressions of what would happen if a particular path was taken under given conmftions and my predicted outcome happening. What harder evidence do you have? Could you have.

There's a big difference between correlation and causality.

Well, the UAF was used as an easily identifiable thing we're against (regardless of knowledge of what they stand for). Identity a few key enemies - ABV of building a group and group solidarity. I have no idea why you mention the daily mail, are you suggesting that there's a wider culture which people produce and live in? Blimey, maybe, just maybe that's the why the EDL obsession is so pointless and counter-productive? What you think?

So if the UAF had completely neglected to mention the EDL, would that have stopped them from growing? Would that have prevented the Daily Mail from pumping out articles about them? Did the presense of the UAF give the EDL their required enemy, and had they not opposed them the EDL would have no reason to attack muslims? No, it wouldn't.

Incidentally at the time of the United People's of Luton march I was arguing exactly what you're arguing now, that if you ignore them they'll go away, don't give them the oxygen of publicity etc. It was only when it became painfully obvious they weren't just going to fizzle out like all the other right-wing sects over the last few years that I really started to take them more seriously. Furthermore I know plenty in the UAF and anti-fascist movement who shared my line of thinking at the time. The Manchester demo was a big benchmark here. After that any idea that by ignoring them we could wait for them to disappear became redundant.

 

[butchersapron]

Slow, or just deliberately obtuse? So far I've mentioned

- Internal fighting in the BNP leading to many key activists leaving and giving up on electoral politics altogether
- Huge publicity from the right-wing media and tabloid press
- Large amounts of money from Alan Lake et al

These are just straight off the top of my head, I'm not even touching the more complex socio-economic and cultural reasons that people may have for wanting to join the EDL.

That's what i asked you for though and what you said that you had already provided.No these nothing reasons And your chronology is shot to fuck-the BNP were not split as now in may 2009, they were at the height of their strength. There was and remains very little mainstream media or tabloid coverage and what there was came very late, this year in fact. Odd that you would argue that media coverage helped build the EDL whilst arguing that your own media coverage did not. Can you square that circle delroy? I'm not even going to bother with the idea that a nutty businessman can conjure up a set of polticalideas with bodies behind it by clicking his fingers.Grow up.

Any at all would do.

All we have is what happened.What more could there be? You've not given what your counter-evidence yet.What could it be?

So if the UAF had completely neglected to mention the EDL, would that have stopped them from growing? Would that have prevented the Daily Mail from pumping out articles about them? Did the presense of the UAF give the EDL their required enemy, and had they not opposed them the EDL would have no reason to attack muslims? No, it wouldn't.

Incidentally at the time of the United People's of Luton march I was arguing exactly what you're arguing now, that if you ignore them they'll go away, don't give them the oxygen of publicity etc. It was only when it became painfully obvious they were just going to fizzle out like all the other right-wing sects over the last few years that I really started to take them more seriously. Furthermore I know plenty in the UAF and anti-fascist movement who shared my line of thinking at the time. The Manchester demo was a big benchmark here. After that any idea that by ignoring them we could wait for them to disappear became redundant.

I didn't say that. What's wrong with you?I said that the UAF response helped the growth of the EDL - it gave them easy group solidarity and the veneer of real politics. Again with the daily mail,and again with ignoring the point that this means that EDL 'activists' live and produce a non-edl world. Tackle that world,the conditions that produce the EDL.

Incidentally, you've just proven my point.