EDL in Tower Hamlets on 20/06

[Citizen66]

Just heard the conference at the Troxy has been cancelled!

Good to see they saw sense. UAF should learn from it.

 

[Pickman's model]

typical bullshit, The EDL demo is cancelled

link or stfu

 

[Citizen66]

typical bullshit, The EDL demo is cancelled

Good. Keep the fuck away from East London.

 

[Ranbay]

They want to come back to Cardiff... LOL

 

[tim]

not only is it not our place to go around trying to sort out the Islamic 'house'

Liberal bullshit

 

[veltins]

Good. Keep the fuck away from East London.

yeah u r right no need to go to east london, maybe west london instead

 

[Das Uberdog]

tbaldwin - yes there are issues of oppression specific to Muslim women. that's not the point; the point is that political agents separate from the 'ummah' can't make what amount to theological arguments against the more reactionary Islamist sects without contributing their own share to the general social hysteria around Islam. and bringing up these issues in the context of an EDL demonstration in the area is just barmy. it can't help but serve as another propaganda attack against the Islamic community, both in terms of the community's own perceptions of the left and also in terms of media representation.

frogwoman, the difference between Zionism and Islamism, in its structural context, is that Zionism is a political and military arm of the overarching Western imperial 'project'; in a very real sense, it represents an arm of the ideology of the ruling class, and of those at the helm of global capitalism. Islamism is the ideology of those dispossessed from any real power or influence, and varying strains of reactionary sectism which emanate from it (some of which are, indeed, sponsored by powerful established forces and interests). this is not a debate over theoretical 'truths' or even social values, it's simply a direct assessment of the differing roles which each ideologies play in the geopolitical relations of the world today. Islamism is perfectly compatible with repression and force, ideologically.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....y=newsela&itemid=WeED10 Jun 2010 12:11:44:280

The Islamismist thing seems to have been cancelled.

 

[frogwoman]

frogwoman, the difference between Zionism and Islamism, in its structural context, is that Zionism is a political and military arm of the overarching Western imperial 'project'; in a very real sense, it represents an arm of the ideology of the ruling class, and of those at the helm of global capitalism. Islamism is the ideology of those dispossessed from any real power or influence, and varying strains of reactionary sectism which emanate from it (some of which are, indeed, sponsored by powerful established forces and interests). this is not a debate over theoretical 'truths' or even social values, it's simply a direct assessment of the differing roles which each ideologies play in the geopolitical relations of the world today. Islamism is perfectly compatible with repression and force, ideologically.

The Saudi royal family I don't think are dispossessed from real power and influence. Yet they are presiding over one of the most repressive Islamic theocracies in the world

Oh, and Jews being persecuted in tajikistan and the like often believe in zionism despite being "isolated and dispossessed". Hasidic jews living in london have one of the highest rates of unemployment in the city, and many of them believe in zionism as well. Does this mean that zionism should not be opposed and indeed because israel is becoming universally unpopular except among jews that we should just support it? What about fundamentalist churches from africa, the people who believe in that shit, witch children and the like, exorcisms, they're pretty devoid of any real influence in the world as well, but would you want to support them in whatever nonsense they were coming out with?

You can twist the argument to argue the exact opposite of what you have just argued. Be careful. In 50 years' time when america's power has declined irrevocably are you going to declare that neo-conservatism, christian fundamentalism, zionism and the like are the ones to be sympathised with instead, because they're "anti-imperialist"?

 

[treelover]

apparently the EDL are going to protest against an Islamic peace conference which is open to all faiths, etc, sounds like a bad move to me, and indicator of where they are moving.

 

[frogwoman]

Umm, no shit.

 

[Citizen66]

yeah u r right no need to go to east london, maybe west london instead

Yep, feel free to remain west of London.

 

[Das Uberdog]

frogwoman, Chasidic Jews in London are not politically dispossessed on the basis of their Judaism. they are not oppressed as an ethnicity. taking your Tajikistan example, i would also argue that, yes - in Tajikistan (and, tbh in many areas of Eastern Europe) it would be counter-productive for the left to actively campaign against Zionism in a situation where the prevalent form of ethnic prejudice was anti-Semitism.

 

[Citizen66]

But I wouldn't be protesting against Islamism per se. I'd be protesting against homophobia and misogyny being encouraged in East London which is despicable whether it be preached by Jews, Muslims, Christians or Atheists. I couldn't give a shit about the possibility of a caliphate elsewhere in the world, presently.

 

[Bristly Pioneer]

/\ this

In an area where homophobic attacks have been massively increasing in the last few years, it is totally justified to be campaigning against homophobic speakers coming to town, regardless of their colour or religion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8316646.stm

http://moderngov.towerhamlets.gov.uk/mgAi.aspx?ID=22009

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2787

 

[frogwoman]

what c66 said.

i take your point about it being counterproductive in terms of attracting support but it really makes little sense to have "the left" conducting campaigns in different countries depending on who's more oppressed. to my mind it is better to be honest that all these nationalist and reactionary ideologies are counterproductive and divisive rather than running the risk of people in one country (where the "left" "supports" or at least doesn't oppose islamist ideology) going to another country where they are saying something completely different. your post is very telling in that it comes and talks about "the left" as somehow separate from the political situation in that country, as if they are coming in and telling them what to do.


as for zionists in tajikistan i see no harm in supporting jewish communities in keeping them out of the community in those countries and working with jewish organisations to provide sustainable living alternatives, jobs etc where not many exist as long as there's something to take their place, especially when they are frequently one of the main reasons why anti-semites there and elsewhere can operate with impunity, because they encourage jews to move to israel and essentially say it's their fault if they stay. im not talking about ostracising people for expressing ignorant pro-israel (or pro-islamist) positions i'm talking about building alternatives that don't divide people and that people can get behind whatever their religious or to a lesser extent political beliefs. and to some extent this has to be practical rather than just sloganising.

it's a difficult question tho and it needs a lot more thought than possibly either you or i have given to this and i respect your views.

 

[frogwoman]

frogwoman, Chasidic Jews in London are not politically dispossessed on the basis of their Judaism. they are not oppressed as an ethnicity.

that's debatable tbh.

 

[Das Uberdog]

the left should never 'encourage' Zionism or Islamism or any reactionary ideology amongst oppressed sections of society. however, there's a distinct difference between 'not encouraging' and 'actively protesting against', which is the issue of this thread. the left should always posit its own class analysis as the alternative to nationalism and racism, but in a positive (and not a negative) light. the message shouldn't be that we 'oppose' a reactionary tangent of Islam who may have convinced certain sections of the community that they are needed for liberation, it should be that the entire issue should be seen in its class context.

 

[frogwoman]

fair enough. i don't always agree although i think sometimes protesting against things can be counterproductive (and patronising as it assumes that people from minority communities cannot think for themselves). however, taking a contrary stand against these islamists is not really any different to what the muslim community is doing themselves by no platforming them and refusing to allow them to use their venues.

at the same time pointing out that it's all about class (which is correct) while ignoring the prejudices that exist against various communities or saying that their concerns are not relevant (a mirror image of saying that concerns re immigration and housing are not relevant and the people raising them are racist) is also fucking stupid as well.

 

[Das Uberdog]

i do take a contrary stance to these Islamists, and i engage with the issues within the community, just not by having a demo against irrelevent sects which the EDL are protesting against on the same day the EDL are there and trying to make some kind of link between the two.

 

[Citizen66]

Like I said before, if you protest against the EDL while they are ostensibly protesting against the Islamists at the Troxy, whilst saying nothing on the matter yourself, it appears to the wider community (and world) that you're in support of the event and the EDL will use that as a stick to beat "the left" with.

 

[Das Uberdog]

but if you join in with their 'protest' then your allowing the fasc to set the political agenda, and you're essentially joining in with the chorus of establishment disapproval over Muslims in Britain.

 

[Citizen66]

but if you join in with their 'protest' then your allowing the fasc to set the political agenda, and you're essentially joining in with the chorus of establishment disapproval over Muslims in Britain.

Not really. The Muslims in our local community have already shown their disapproval of the women and gay hating Islamists by not giving them a platform at the mosque. I would be supporting their stance by picketing the Troxy whilst not giving the EDL the freedom to move around the community either. They can fuck off back to Birmingham.

 

[audiotech]

Oh dear. It appears there's trouble in the ranks?

 

[Citizen66]

Oh dear. It appears there's trouble in the ranks?

"They will face the reaction of your actions, because every action causes a reaction."



A split looming?

 

[OneStrike]

Is that genuine? The video is dated on the 8th yet Tommy Robinson was posting on the EDL site on the 9th?

#edited, a quote of his was posted on the 9th, my naughty.

 

[Citizen66]

The whole soap opera appears to be catalogued here:

http:// lionheartuk.blogspot.com/

(Link broken to conform with the faq)

 

[Das Uberdog]

Not really. The Muslims in our local community have already shown their disapproval of the women and gay hating Islamists by not giving them a platform at the mosque. I would be supporting their stance by picketing the Troxy whilst not giving the EDL the freedom to move around the community either. They can fuck off back to Birmingham.

no, they would have protested against it themselves if they thought it was necessary. they don't need a bunch of white lefties to do it for them.

on the EDL issue, although it looks on the surface like a right good old mess Tommy Robinson was one of the few influential non-BNPers on the leadership body of the organization. without knowing more about the situation, it might be too soon to say whether or not this expulsion and subsequent insanity was due to internal strife, or whether or not it was an unexpected by-product of the BNP formally taking hold of the organization.

 

[Citizen66]

no, they would have protested against it themselves if they thought it was necessary. they don't need a bunch of white lefties to do it for them.

hahahahaha.

Same goes for protesting against the edl, then? Hypocritical muppet.

Look, I live in the area. You clearly don't. If I don't want misogyny and homophobia to be given a platform in east London then I'll use my democratic right to protest against it. Same goes for the EDL being bused in from elsewhere to stir up local division.

 

[frogwoman]

i do take a contrary stance to these Islamists, and i engage with the issues within the community, just not by having a demo against irrelevent sects which the EDL are protesting against on the same day the EDL are there and trying to make some kind of link between the two.

They aren't irrelevant though. They are having a very negative impact on community relations. As I saw on saturday's demo and as I've seen in the past with other demos and from talking to people I know. And there's no point blaming "the media" for it.