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DWP advice on self harm, suicide. I find this a bit alarming.

I meant care for the patient, but no I'm aware that mental health nurses don't get specialist care for this sort of thing. But they will be trained in advance so they'll know what they're doing at least.

Lots of mental health nurses are now being expected to hot-desk or work from home, so that they no longer have that opportunity to talk to colleagues about what they're dealing with. Maybe that will save a small amount of money in the short term but in the long term it will result in many highly trained and experienced people getting burnt out and leaving the profession.

Yes, agile working is being introduced where I work. It's a terrible idea.

As for specialist care for someone who was threatening suicide due to having had their benefits cut? The only thing that's gonna help is reinstating the benefits. Not something that mental health services can do, unfortunately.
 
...which isn't necessarily a bad thing provided that the people doing it are properly trained and provided it is followed up with proper specialist care. Sadly neither of those seems to be the case with the DWP.

And THAT is the whole damn point, It has fuck all to do with mental health professionals. The issue is that the DWP is making things so bad for people.

There are NO mental health professionals involved at all.

That, going back to the original article, is one problem.
 
Yes, agile working is being introduced where I work. It's a terrible idea.

Is that what they're calling it, agile working? What unspeakable bastard came up with that bit of newspeak?

All these things are dreamt up by consultancy drones who have probably never met a real person never mind done a real job. Everything's just blinking lights to them. And they get paid a fucking fortune for this shit, for making life a misery for however many thousands of real people doing real work that actually needs doing.
 
In my experience mental health services can have a role in supporting people whose benefits have been cut. I am currently in the process of claiming PIP, ESA and housing benefit. The PIP because my DLA was stopped (I did not renew it in time, a consequence and cause of being in crisis), ESA because before that I was intimidated by the process, and housing benefit because of moving from supported accommodation to my own flat.

With the ESA, I was strongly advised by my social worker (who is my care-coordinator from the mental health team), to claim ESA rather than JSA, precisely because of the likelihood of me being sanctioned if on JSA. This advice included supporting me to overcome the sense of shame I felt in not working, and in (in my head at least) admitting defeat about not getting back into work in the short term.

With all three, he has supported me in filing in the forms, in making phone calls (such as in being present when I've made them, and therefore being able to help me provide information about my care if I was unable to remember, and to give feedback afterwards on how I dealt with the phone call) and has counselled me in terms of the sorts of conflicts and difficulties I might experience when dealing with the DWP, or in the case of housing benefit, my district council. All of this has, I hope, supported me to make the claims in a way which reduces my chances of having my benefits denied or stopped in the future.

That's not to say that mental health services do support people who are having or at risk of having their benefits stopped. One of my friends desperately needs support in completing forms, and is effectively housebound atm for physical and mental health reasons , but her CPN has refused to visit her at home for this, or any other purpose, saying she doesn't visit people in their homes. I have previously been, incorrectly, told by a CPN that it would be a waste of time to review my benefits. I have also been told by a care staff to look for work, to 'improve my social skills', whilst I was in crisis - in fact it was literally hours before a suicide attempt. This fed into my belief that claiming benefits and being out of work was shameful, and has played a part in my crises, and in my difficulties in claiming benefits.

The point im attempting to make is not that mental health services can replace not being homeless and starving. but that they can practically support (or not if that's their inclination) people to claim benefits once they've been stopped, and to claim in a way that reduces the risk of them being stopped; and that they can also support (or damage) people's psychological ability to deal with the (brutal) benefits system.

I feel guilty making reference to my own experiences of benefit claiming, poor mental health and suicidality in this discussion - the possibility that those issues may effect others' responses to my comments. Not sure if that's sensible anxiety. Would appreciate feedback on whether I should exclude that.
 
This six point plan isn't new. It is something that has been around certainly for the last 12 years.

The DWP have always dealt with ill and vulnerable people. Therefore these disclosures are more likely to happen and it is normal and sensible to make sure staff have guidance to deal with it.

BTW, has anyone actually read the six point plan?

Yes. I've used it twice in the last three years. Neither were anything to do with welfare reforms, both were ill people and I'm very glad that they made the disclosures they did when they did as it meant I was able to get them help.

One of them was an extremely chaotic drug user who I think was probably sectioned. I've seen him in the office since so I know he didn't go through with it. The second I continued to work with once she had got the help. She told me she had no intention of making the disclosure she did to me but because I was kind and she felt I was listening it just came out. She thanked me for saving her life and getting her engaged with the services she needed.

Now, I would have acted without the six point plan but some people presented with that information would be like rabbits in headlights and without any knowledge or direction may well be too frightened to act.

There's plenty of sticks to beat the DWP with imo. This ain't one of them.
 
...
There's plenty of sticks to beat the DWP with imo. This ain't one of them.

My "stick" though, is that untrained and probably overworked call-centre workers are being landed with terrible responsibilities.

...“Some of us have been given a baby-pink laminated sheet which we’ve been told to hold up in the air if someone threatens to self-harm or commit suicide. So, when we are on the phone speaking to claimants – who are often very vulnerable people who are being sanctioned all the time and have no money – if they express that they intend to harm themselves or kill themselves there is a sheet instructing us how to react, which involves asking a number of questions, including how they intend to do it.
“... But we are not trained to deal with vulnerable people in this way. It’s a very distressing thing for us to handle.
“They’re basically telling us to assess claimants by asking how they intend to self-harm or commit suicide, which is a job that only a trained psychologist, social worker, or at the very least, a counsellor should be doing.”

Another worker said: “There was a man on the phone to me who said if he didn’t get money he’d kill himself. This was before we were issued with the guidelines and I wasn’t sure what to do so I could only try to calm him down.
“He hung up the phone and when I tried to call him back I couldn’t get through. It was very upsetting. I spent the rest of the day worried that he may have taken his own life.
“It wasn’t until the next day that a colleague told me they spoke to him later and he didn’t go through with it.
“But I know of colleagues who have been told by claimants that they are going to commit suicide and they have done so. It’s devastating for them.”
...

My annoyance, simply put, is that this is very bad for the people who have to 'phone up a DWP call centre, and very bad and stressful for the call centre workers. There's a big difference between "Yes, and did you post form 1234xyz to us?" and "Oh holy shit, this is serious stuff that needs attention more than a call centre person can give."

DWP call centre workers are being forced to deal with things far beyond their remit - seriously bad things for which they have no training or support. This is not good, really, not good for DWP workers and doubleplusungood for their - what - "clients? customers?

Not good for anyone. Although I daresay Iain Duncan Smith is untroubled.
 
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I meant care for the patient, but no I'm aware that mental health nurses don't get specialist care for this sort of thing. But they will be trained in advance so they'll know what they're doing at least.

Lots of mental health nurses are now being expected to hot-desk or work from home, so that they no longer have that opportunity to talk to colleagues about what they're dealing with. Maybe that will save a small amount of money in the short term but in the long term it will result in many highly trained and experienced people getting burnt out and leaving the profession.

Never mind the fact that mental health professionals, suicide hotline workers & volunteers, etc CHOSE those fields, for the most part, because they wanted to help people and are (most likely) emotionally and temperamentally suited to help people in that way!

Asking that of people who didn't sign up for that type of work to do it as part of a completely different job is ludicrous and a dangerous idea, for obvious reasons. I don't think any of us would want to call up a crisis hotline not knowing if the person on the other end had any interest in helping people or were just doing it for a paycheck or because they were forced to.

There's so many issues here I don't even know where to begin.

Couldn't / shouldn't they just direct those calls elsewhere?
 
Celyn I think you're missing the entire point of the plan. If there was nothing in place do you think the suicidal person would not make the disclosure? Of course not. So there needs to be something.

I don't know what you think the plan consists of but you seem to be attributing a lot to it that isn't there.

It's basically as follows;

Alert someone nearby, a colleague or manager (there will be a way of dealing with this, our office has a codeword)

Try and get the person some privacy.

Find as much information as you can/feel able to deal with. If someone has made such a serious disclosure they will often give more info which could be useful for the authorities later both in assessing seriousness and in stopping them (if someone is planning jumping off a bridge knowing which bridge is useful for example). Also names/contact numbers of anyone already working with them is useful.

Keep them talking and where possible get their permission to get them help (in my case I rang his drugworker with his permission) and they arranged to have him assessed and the crisis team for the woman I helped.

Remember you can phone the emergency services at any point you feel is necessary. (Much more likely for an 'untrained call centre worker'. In the case of me sending my people on I rang to check they had gone. If they hadn't I would gave rung 999.

You will have a debrief with your manager afterwards and you can access Right Corecare if you need further support.

That's basically it. It's only basic protection for staff and the customers until someone qualified can take over. Given the volumes of ill and vulnerable people we deal with every day I don't know how it can be considered anything but essential tbh.
 
Never mind the fact that mental health professionals, suicide hotline workers & volunteers, etc CHOSE those fields, for the most part, because they wanted to help people and are (most likely) emotionally and temperamentally suited to help people in that way!

Asking that of people who didn't sign up for that type of work to do it as part of a completely different job is ludicrous and a dangerous idea, for obvious reasons. I don't think any of us would want to call up a crisis hotline not knowing if the person on the other end had any interest in helping people or were just doing it for a paycheck or because they were forced to.

There's so many issues here I don't even know where to begin.

Couldn't / shouldn't they just direct those calls elsewhere?

To who?

And without further information it's not a helpful redirect is it? What if tal
he person hangs up?

Even if all the call centre worker does is gets some basic info (where are you and what are you planning to do) and rings 999 something needs doing, hence there being guidance in place.
 
I was hoping you'd post Glitter.

The link Blagsta posted yesterday has the DWP guidance in it. It was a response to a FOI request in 2011 asking if the 6 point planned was in response to benefit cuts - the answer was that the guidance has existed in job centres for a long time, the 6 point plan was an attempt to standardise it. It was the first thing I got when I googled DWP suicide guidance but I didn't bother posting it because I didn't think it would be read. The first hand experience of Glitter is more convincing anyway as what's on paper may not be what actually occurs. I'm glad you find it useful on the ground Glitter because in theory I think it sounds like very good guidance, with appropriate informing of managers and linking up where possible with existing health services.

Managing risk in any service depends on people following guidance and procedures. There are arguments in mental health services and social work concerning the replacement of knowledge gained through relationships with people over the long term with procedure and box ticking risk management but checklists and plans are currently what keep people safe(r), there's no magic.
 
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I feel guilty making reference to my own experiences of benefit claiming, poor mental health and suicidality in this discussion - the possibility that those issues may effect others' responses to my comments. Not sure if that's sensible anxiety. Would appreciate feedback on whether I should exclude that.

MadeInBedlam, I don't think you should exclude that. There's nothing you've said that would make people think they have to tread carefully if that's your concern. It's a helpful and thoughtful post.

I think its unfortunate that the discussion ended up presenting a view of mental health services vs administrative call centre workers as though they inhabit different worlds unconnected to each other. One point, I think, was that at first disclosure mental health services would not be able to do more than the DWP, they would have a similar process to follow. Some of those workers may well be psychologists but mental health services are provided by untrained people too, support workers and HCA's supporting nurses, and also admin staff, who would refer on as required. Its an idealisation to imagine that these services are always provided by highly trained people all able to exercise the kind of judgement that can only come with considerable experience and is best exercised in the context of teams. That being said, DWP workers are expected to refer on, as is appropriate, to specialist workers, who would then themselves follow procedure to try and ascertain the risk; mental health services may get it right, they may get it wrong. There are no simple solutions to these kinds of complexities.

What is certainly true is that mental health services cannot bear the devastation of people's lives and their health wrought by government policy.
 
One point that I think is worth making, because it's a myth that resurfaces constantly - talking to someone about suicide does not make them more likely to attempt it.

While I do have a significant issue with the idea of barely-trained callcentre operatives having to field suicidal clients (and a pretty cynical view of the standard of ATOS's in-house counselling service for DWP staff), the questions they are being told to ask fall pretty reasonably within the standard protocols for most suicide prevention strategies.
 
This advice is only for political show IMO.

From a statistical point of view, in the short term at least, suicide is good for the DWP because it is burdening the state less and reducing the figures.

It is the final market solution. That there have been so many, often vigilintly documented here, demonstrates a causal link. This response from DWP is mealy mouthed.

They are anti human scum who have no fundamental problem with people topping themselves through sheer misery and despair. In fact, sheer misery and despair are useful negative components of the modern capitalist incentive model.
 
This advice is only for political show IMO.

From a statistical point of view, in the short term at least, suicide is good for the DWP because it is burdening the state less and reducing the figures.

It is the final market solution. That there have been so many, often vigilintly documented here, demonstrates a causal link. This response from DWP is mealy mouthed.

They are anti human scum who have no fundamental problem with people topping themselves through sheer misery and despair. In fact, sheer misery and despair are useful negative components of the modern capitalist incentive model.
I've wondered about this.

I don't believe that the DWP, as a collection of individuals, or even as an organisation, is genuinely and happily driving people to suicide as a matter of policy. For a start, that would be so controversial as to result in people at a very senior level coming out against it.

What I think they are doing is, in some ways, worse: they are behaving in a way that people are telling them is increasing the risk of suicide amongst their claimants, but refusing to believe the facts. They - at a ministerial and perhaps senior managerial level - are simply closing their minds to the idea that their actions are capable of pushing people over the suicidal edge. And when they are confronted with cases where that appears to have happened, their denial tells them that these people were already at risk of suicide anyway, and therefore they cannot be held responsible.

It's a pretty bleak outlook, but one that is not all that uncommon, especially in people who are possessed by a dogmatic belief that what they are doing is right. I think that this Government, and in particular Duncan Smith, is/are stupid enough to be able to cling onto their cherished idea that the population is essentially just like a bunch of kids who just need to be smacked hard enough to behave themselves (as if that even worked with kids). I think the mindset is "if a few of those kids are stupid enough to kill themselves because they became so discouraged by the emotional violence being meted out to them, that's their problem, not ours."

Which is horribly callous and - as I said - in my mind far worse and more dishonest than a genuine, upfront policy of eugenics which they could at least be called to account for.

And yes, the strategy for dealing with suicidal claimants probably is at least somewhat political - but then pretty much anything to do with the State is going to be. They do have to be seen to be doing something about it, and giving everybody a laminated "what to do if..." card probably feels to them like an appropriate response in the circumstances.

But I think it's a huge reach - and perhaps even rather disrespectful to those victimised by these policies - to characterise them as deliberate attempts to drive people to suicide. And, perhaps more importantly, it discredits and undermines any movement aimed at calling the Government to account for its actions in connection with claimants who have died by suicide.
 
What I think they are doing is, in some ways, worse: they are behaving in a way that people are telling them is increasing the risk of suicide amongst their claimants, but refusing to believe the facts. They - at a ministerial and perhaps senior managerial level - are simply closing their minds to the idea that their actions are capable of pushing people over the suicidal edge. And when they are confronted with cases where that appears to have happened, their denial tells them that these people were already at risk of suicide anyway, and therefore they cannot be held responsible.

It goes further than that. A consensus has developed not just on the Tory right, but within think tanks, charities, senior health policy makers, the Labour Party and even some in the trade union movement that the very worst thing you can do for someone who is poor is to incentivise them to stay poor by giving them money - see the begging poster thread for an example. This is a moral crusade that both ignores the evidence, the lack of jobs and peoples experiences, but thats fine because these people are experts and isolated from the impacts of the shit they spout. It is therefore impossible that all the 'help' being offered can be leading to suicides, or at the very least the deaths are acceptable collateral damage to achieve a greater good. Of course that these very same ideologues are making lots of money out of these policies in the form of work programme contracts etc is just a detail - they deserve that money - they are experts.
 
There's a denial of dependency across the board, including the ideas driving the cuts in mental health services, aswell as benefits. If you haven't got a skill set (to sell in the marketplace, or to manage your symptoms etc) then you are deficient, punishable and disposable.
 
It goes further than that. A consensus has developed not just on the Tory right, but within think tanks, charities, senior health policy makers, the Labour Party and even some in the trade union movement that the very worst thing you can do for someone who is poor is to incentivise them to stay poor by giving them money - see the begging poster thread for an example. This is a moral crusade that both ignores the evidence, the lack of jobs and peoples experiences, but thats fine because these people are experts and isolated from the impacts of the shit they spout. It is therefore impossible that all the 'help' being offered can be leading to suicides, or at the very least the deaths are acceptable collateral damage to achieve a greater good. Of course that these very same ideologues are making lots of money out of these policies in the form of work programme contracts etc is just a detail - they deserve that money - they are experts.
Yup. I agree. There is very much a mindset - and one that is utterly uninformed by all of the decades of psychological research into human behaviour - that owes a great deal to behaviourism and very little to the far more complex and nuanced aspects of how we operate.

Yet when any study comes out which doesn't support the "common sense" view, it's completely ignored in favour of the accepted wisdom.

So we get saddled with policy built on the (massive) presumption that people who claim benefits are simply doing so because it's "easier", and that the answer to the entire issue is therefore to "make it harder", which completely fails to address the multitude of reasons that people find themselves unable to support themselves, most of which have nothing to do with the "ease" of being able to put their hand out and have money thrust into it.

And, of course, they are so fixated on that mindset that they are also blithely - and to some extent wilfully - ignorant of the consequences of policies based on it.

Yes, they are experts. Experts in a narrowly-defined, unproven, and purely self-serving outlook that discounts anything that doesn't support it. It's basically conspiraloon thinking writ large. So their expertise is 100% analogous to the "expert" who claims that 9/11 was carried out by FBI-employed flying space monkeys controlling remotely-controlled holographic planes flying into towers made out of unobtanium explosives.

Unfortunately, most conspiraloons, no matter how much they wish to be powerful, don't have the power to wreck, and sometimes prematurely end, lives that politicians have.
 
I don't think the tories believe any of that, they're not stupid, they're cruel, both fearful and hateful of vulnerability, and acting in the short term economic interest of themselves and their class.

What that narrative does is it reduces other people to parts, a part, the part that is motivated by money, and erases other aspects of their selves. A part of a human being is not a human; its a process of dehumanisation, a scapegoating of people in the process of achieving a conscious political end.
 
This six point plan isn't new. It is something that has been around certainly for the last 12 years.

The DWP have always dealt with ill and vulnerable people. Therefore these disclosures are more likely to happen and it is normal and sensible to make sure staff have guidance to deal with it.



Yes. I've used it twice in the last three years. Neither were anything to do with welfare reforms, both were ill people and I'm very glad that they made the disclosures they did when they did as it meant I was able to get them help.

One of them was an extremely chaotic drug user who I think was probably sectioned. I've seen him in the office since so I know he didn't go through with it. The second I continued to work with once she had got the help. She told me she had no intention of making the disclosure she did to me but because I was kind and she felt I was listening it just came out. She thanked me for saving her life and getting her engaged with the services she needed.

Now, I would have acted without the six point plan but some people presented with that information would be like rabbits in headlights and without any knowledge or direction may well be too frightened to act.

There's plenty of sticks to beat the DWP with imo. This ain't one of them.

Well said Glitter. ...I'm glad I read all the thread before commenting because you have said exactly what I was going to.

We have guidance to follow when suicide is mentioned and in my 15 years we always have and so far it has worked. Thank fuck.

I think the reason this is news now is because there has been a large recruitment into Universal Credit Service Centres in the last year and obviously a lot of staff haven't had the training yet.
 
I can't begin to think how the dwp could cope with anyone with suicidal tendencies?
They don't have the want or the know how. My dealings with these people are automotons on the end of the phone, call centre staff reading off an autocue and probably trained for 3 days. They are just data input monkeys and on shite money. (given enough time they could create a shakespeare). The jobcentre staff are probably force fed channel 5 and the DM and they wouldn't look out of place at port merion. I once called the mental health crisis team on behalf of a friend who needed his monthly meds before travelling back home. He was having a major episode and felt he couldn't travel or he may harm himself. I was told 'you will just have to put him on a train and we will see him when he gets home' (180 mile journey). This is mental healthcare stretched to the limits due to tory cuts. So how on earth can the dwp do fuck all when my friends specialist team who have been in place since his diagnosis in 1980 can't?
 
can't comment on the training / motivation of DWP staff, but saw something (now buried somewhere on tweeter) about how many temp staff DWP are taking on at the moment - having made loads redundant recently...

And have a feeling it's the staff to whom being a cunt* comes least naturally who will have either been 'performance managed' out or will have been at the front of the queue for volunteer redundancy

:facepalm:

* - not saying you have to be to work there, but sounds like behaving like one (sanctions targets etc) is encouraged...
 
I've also experienced the opposite of that puddy,...people who had their heads in the sand (but not total cunts) but started to speak out and use the union to highlight just how fucking awful it has become to work for the DWP in terms of micro-managed, performance reviewed day to day crap in which they are encouraged to fuck people over.
 
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