DWP advice on self harm, suicide. I find this a bit alarming.

[Calamity1971]

Piss poor generalisations there.

You miss my point josef. The point I was trying to make albeit sarcastically was if the 'mental health crisis team' are no good in a crisis, then how can we expect the dwp employees to be. I know of two people who have left the system because they can't handle the new sanction rules. Anybody on the frontline in jobcentre plus with an ounce of humanity must find the new regime completely disheartening. Some probably worked it all their lives and would want out but are near retiring age and are trapped. Call centre staff will have in house computer, you go beyond any questions on that and they haven't a clue, not their fault and I don't knock them for that having worked in that type of shit environment before. It will only get worse now they have to re train on universal credit. I'm sure this link has been on before but it shows how much pressure the staff are under as Ruitita 1 has pointed out.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/131781238/DWP-Whistleblower-Letter.

 

[Glitter]

It's not really a question of whether the staff are being expected to deal with this stuff. It's about acknowledging that it happens and attempting to equip the staff member with some tools to deal with it. Suicidal people don't generally make assessments and find the most qualified people before telling someone how they feel. It comes out to whoever they have contact with. Often this will be the DWP. Having nothing in place to support the staff in dealing with this would be madness.

Imagine it the other way around - someone made a disclisure to the DWP and were handed off because the oerson concerned didn't have a clue what to do. That's far more dangerous.

 

[8115]

But the fact that it's happening regularly and people don't say "things have to change" but instead, "oh how to deal with people who are suicidal because they've lost their benefits", that's the real scandal.

 

[Glitter]

But the fact that it's happening regularly and people don't say "things have to change" but instead, "oh how to deal with people who are suicidal because they've lost their benefits", that's the real scandal.

That isn't what this is about though - as I said in my very first post these policies aren't new. They've been in place for at least the 12 years I've worked there.

I'm not saying that isn't happening btw, I'm saying it isn't the same as there being a plan in place.

 

[andysays]

It's not really a question of whether the staff are being expected to deal with this stuff. It's about acknowledging that it happens and attempting to equip the staff member with some tools to deal with it. Suicidal people don't generally make assessments and find the most qualified people before telling someone how they feel. It comes out to whoever they have contact with. Often this will be the DWP. Having nothing in place to support the staff in dealing with this would be madness.

Imagine it the other way around - someone made a disclisure to the DWP and were handed off because the oerson concerned didn't have a clue what to do. That's far more dangerous.

This sounds reasonable, but I suggest it very much depends on what "tools" they are given and how they are to be applied.

DWP staff are not in a position to make a thorough analysis about if someone is really at risk of suicide, nor are they able to provide them with the emergency care which they might well need, anymore than any other random member of the public to whom someone might disclose that they are feeling suicidal.

Rather than put them through a succession of intrusive and upsetting questions (and as someone who has experienced this from those actually qualified to do it and able to offer something in response, I know how intrusive and upsetting they can be, even coming from an appropriate person face to face rather than over the phone), and not be able to do anything other than pass them on to someone else at the end who will have to go through the same stuff all over again, I suggest they should be passed on to appropriate MH services immediately.

 

[existentialist]

But the fact that it's happening regularly and people don't say "things have to change" but instead, "oh how to deal with people who are suicidal because they've lost their benefits", that's the real scandal.

I am sure that the DWP is - very carefully - making sure that it is doing exactly what it has to do in terms of giving the appearance of dealing with suicidal callers correctly. That's a good thing, not least because we really do need to have a more "first aid" approach to this kind of issue if we seriously want to reduce risk of suicide.

However, as a completely separate issue, there is no doubt in my mind that the way in which benefits claimants are now treated will increase suicide risk in already vulnerable people, and put those who weren't suicidal at risk as well.

They're two separate issues, and the scandal is not the way in which DWP is dealing with suicidal clients, but the fact that their very actions are making it more necessary for them to.

 

[existentialist]

This sounds reasonable, but I suggest it very much depends on what "tools" they are given and how they are to be applied.

DWP staff are not in a position to make a thorough analysis about if someone is really at risk of suicide, nor are they able to provide them with the emergency care which they might well need, anymore than any other random member of the public to whom someone might disclose that they are feeling suicidal.

Rather than put them through a succession of intrusive and upsetting questions (and as someone who has experienced this from those actually qualified to do it and able to offer something in response, I know how intrusive and upsetting they can be, even coming from an appropriate person face to face rather than over the phone), and not be able to do anything other than pass them on to someone else at the end who will have to go through the same stuff all over again, I suggest they should be passed on to appropriate MH services immediately.

It's tricky.

The sort of things you need to know if someone has disclosed that they are suicidal will necessitate asking quite intrusive questions, which is why it's important to make sure that people have at least some level of training in the first place.

But the awful reality is that there is no-one to pass them onto. Really, no-one. If someone is acutely suicidal, as in holding the knife to their wrist/throat, or has the means of overdose and is on the point of taking it, then you can get the police involved and they'll take them to a "place of safety". More often than not, that will be a police cell, because overstretched acute psychiatric care won't be able to sort out a secure bed and the necessary level of supervision quickly enough, if at all. But if you go to the police or mental health services saying "I've had so-and-so on the phone and he says he's going to kill himself if he doesn't get his benefits", I am almost completely certain that the best you'll get is a vague promise to call them back or check out the house.

One of the reasons I think we do need to get more and more people trained to do suicide first aid is because the bar to gain help from mainstream services is constantly being raised. And, even when help is available, it's usually no more than containment/warehousing until the risk is assumed to have passed before they're discharged. My first wife ended up in intensive care TWICE as a result of that kind of decision-making.

 

[Glitter]

This sounds reasonable, but I suggest it very much depends on what "tools" they are given and how they are to be applied.

DWP staff are not in a position to make a thorough analysis about if someone is really at risk of suicide, nor are they able to provide them with the emergency care which they might well need, anymore than any other random member of the public to whom someone might disclose that they are feeling suicidal.

Rather than put them through a succession of intrusive and upsetting questions (and as someone who has experienced this from those actually qualified to do it and able to offer something in response, I know how intrusive and upsetting they can be, even coming from an appropriate person face to face rather than over the phone), and not be able to do anything other than pass them on to someone else at the end who will have to go through the same stuff all over again, I suggest they should be passed on to appropriate MH services immediately.

In one of my earlier posts I said what it basically consists of and my experience of using it.

Whilst you're right that DWP staff aren't any more qualified than joe public to deal with this the reality is that when you deal with people who are ill or lead chaotic lives, like a dwp worker does, you are far more likely to come into contact with a suicidal person. And sadly gathering that information can be vital.

We'd all rather not deal with these situations. I don't want to ask personal and intrusive questions any more than anyone else but if it's between that and someone's life (and it literally has been for me) then I wiĺl do it without hesitation.

 

[StoneRoad]

^^^^ This. existentialist - you have said exactly what I was thinking and most clearly expressed.

 

[andysays]

It's tricky.

The sort of things you need to know if someone has disclosed that they are suicidal will necessitate asking quite intrusive questions, which is why it's important to make sure that people have at least some level of training in the first place.

But the awful reality is that there is no-one to pass them onto. Really, no-one. If someone is acutely suicidal, as in holding the knife to their wrist/throat, or has the means of overdose and is on the point of taking it, then you can get the police involved and they'll take them to a "place of safety". More often than not, that will be a police cell, because overstretched acute psychiatric care won't be able to sort out a secure bed and the necessary level of supervision quickly enough, if at all. But if you go to the police or mental health services saying "I've had so-and-so on the phone and he says he's going to kill himself if he doesn't get his benefits", I am almost completely certain that the best you'll get is a vague promise to call them back or check out the house.

One of the reasons I think we do need to get more and more people trained to do suicide first aid is because the bar to gain help from mainstream services is constantly being raised. And, even when help is available, it's usually no more than containment/warehousing until the risk is assumed to have passed before they're discharged. My first wife ended up in intensive care TWICE as a result of that kind of decision-making.

My personal experience is that there is someone for people to be passed on to. Where I live in Haringey, there is the MH Crisis Care team who will come and visit people in their home, the is a residential crisis centre where people can stay and as a point of last resort there are emergency admissions to full-blown psychiatric hospital. I've hand first hand experience of all those services

I realise that all these services and others are overstretched, underfunded and understaffed, but they do exist and they can be accessed if the correct steps are gone through (not much help if you're alone and have no idea what steps you need to go through).

That's why I'm angered and frustrated by people saying that there is nothing MH services can do for people who are suicidal, because it may lead to those who need help not getting it because they think there's literally no help available.

From my point of view, good suicide first aid would involve knowing how to access those specialist services in an emergency, just as good general first aid crucially involves knowing when to call an ambulance.

Maybe similar services are not available in other areas, and maybe I've just been lucky; I'm sure situations such as you describe exist as well. Sorry to hear about your ex-wife's experiences.

And now I think I'm going to leave this thread for now, as getting drawn further into it probably isn't good for my immediate mental health (no reflection on any other contributors intended)

 

[andysays]

In one of my earlier posts I said what it basically consists of and my experience of using it.

Whilst you're right that DWP staff aren't any more qualified than joe public to deal with this the reality is that when you deal with people who are ill or lead chaotic lives, like a dwp worker does, you are far more likely to come into contact with a suicidal person. And sadly gathering that information can be vital.

We'd all rather not deal with these situations. I don't want to ask personal and intrusive questions any more than anyone else but if it's between that and someone's life (and it literally has been for me) then I wiĺl do it without hesitation.

Fair enough, I'm not criticising individual DWP workers who are put in this position, and I hope I haven't appeared to be doing so.