DWP advice on self harm, suicide. I find this a bit alarming.

[Blagsta]

IME too, but then my experiences of this were not as a DWP worker. I was in a position of much more trust and my relationship with people was not one of such bureaucratic authority.

True. But if someone has called the dwp and threatened suicide, what should the person receiving the call do? Not discuss it? Hang up? What?

 

[Celyn]

If someone is threatening suicide due to having benefits cut, there's nothing that mental health services can do to change the situation.

Yes.

And this is about people at the end of their tether with no money or food.

 

[Blagsta]

Yes.

And this is about people at the end of their tether with no money or food.

Exactly. Mental health services can't change that. The DWP can.

 

[Celyn]

Exactly. Mental health services can't change that. The DWP can.

And that is the point, isn't it?

This is not about people contacting mental health services in the normal run of things. This is about people with or without mental health issues having no money and NO FOOD. No food for the children, no food!

 

[Blagsta]

And that is the point, isn't it?

This is not about people contacting mental health services in the normal run of things. This is about people with or without mental health issues having no money and NO FOOD. No food for the children, no food!

Yes, it's shit. We know it's shit. It's shit that DWP workers are being put this position.

The actual advice though, on how to deal with a call of this nature is pretty standard advice and not very different from what mental health services would do.

 

[purenarcotic]

And that is the point, isn't it?

This is not about people contacting mental health services in the normal run of things. This is about people with or without mental health issues having no money and NO FOOD. No food for the children, no food!

This is what's so fucked up about it. I have no objection in principle to guidance being issued on suicide and self harm for any group of workers working with vulnerable groups of people but if people weren't cut off, sanctioned, refused, experienced delays etc then the likelihood of these things happening would be drastically reduced.

It's implementing a pretty rubbish sticking plaster as opposed to treating what's causing the gaping wound.

 

[purenarcotic]

Telling staff they may feel 'upset' afterwards and that that is okay is also shite. If they want people to ask these questions then they need to offer proper supervision and support around it. People need to offload.

 

[Blagsta]

Telling staff they may feel 'upset' afterwards and that that is okay is also shite. If they want people to ask these questions then they need to offer proper supervision and support around it. People need to offload.

Proper supervision and support would be nice in mental health services.

 

[Celyn]

Yes, this is, remember not a case of people getting in touch because of suicidal ideation or whatever. This is a all about people needing to have money (not much money, lest there be any DM readers about).

The thing here is that is is NOT about a mental health service, no matter how some might like to view it in that way: it is people who have no money and no food. This is not good, is not good at all.

 

[Plumdaff]

Working in mental health services I get fed up with being expected to be able to fix what are entirely understandable emotional responses to government policy. As Blagsta says, there's no role for us in this, and attempts to misuse psychological interventions to do so are obscene.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Asking suicidal people about how and when they would do it, is pretty standard advice. You don't need to be a psychologist.

A psychologist would be more insulated from the effects of hearing such disclosures, though. I suspect that any "debriefing" of staff by DWP will be minimal.

 

[ice-is-forming]

its mental health first aid

 

[Celyn]

People who are desperate are not, you see, 'phoning the mental health services. They are 'phoning the DWP, which deals with jobseeker allowance, working tax credits etc. and all of that.

What I fear might be missing from the debate here is that we are not talking about mental health or counselling or anything like that: we are talking about money, family income, food, electricity bills and all that sort of keeping alive sort of stuff.

What mental health services might or not be a good approach is absolutely not the issue here.

 

[Blagsta]

A psychologist would be more insulated from the effects of hearing such disclosures, though. I suspect that any "debriefing" of staff by DWP will be minimal.

Psychologists are still human beings!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Psychologists are still human beings!

Yes, and they have professional protocols that mean they can offload some of their stress. Joe Cunt at the call centre doesn't.

 

[Blagsta]

Yes, and they have professional protocols that mean they can offload some of their stress. Joe Cunt at the call centre doesn't.

Psychologists don't take phone calls of this nature though.

 

[Celyn]

Psychologists are still human beings!

Yes. I'm sure you are and I'm sure you are an utterly beautiful human being. )

This is not about any qualified mental health mental health professionals. It really is not the issue. The issue is that unfortunate and impecunious people have to deal with these call-centre staff, which is not good for them, and it is also very very bad for these call-centre workers too.

Look, the point is not about the quality of mental health care, but about the complete absence of it. It's about the bloody DWP and about poverty before it is about psychologists, lovely people who they doubtless are.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not a psychologist.

I am lovely though.

 

[Red Cat]

A quick google tells me the six point plan has been around for a while now.

 

[MrSki]

Maybe they should be given advice on dealing with grieving relatives.

Grieving mum shocked after DWP call demanding son's whereabouts - one day after his funeral

 

[Red Cat]

I'm really struggling to understand what point you're trying to make overall on this thread, or your purpose in contributing to it.

What MH services can do is to assess if the threat/risk of suicide is significant and take whatever action is thought to be necessary. DWP staff (or any other "common sense" member of the public) are unable to make that assessment or to take appropriate action.

For you to argue otherwise, and to suggest that all this is just fine and dandy, is frankly irresponsible IMO. And that's my final response to you on this thread.

I don't think it's ok to suggest that mental health workers on urban are irresponsible just because they disagree with you or anyone else on here. I don't see other posters professionalism called into question on these boards whereas when a mental health worker says something that other people don't like either through genuine disagreement or a misunderstanding or an assumption based on the least generous interpretation then slurs follow. Its well out of order.

 

[Celyn]

I'm not a psychologist.

I am lovely though.

Oh, well then. Come up and see me some time.

 

[andysays]

I don't think it's ok to suggest that mental health workers on urban are irresponsible just because they disagree with you or anyone else on here. I don't see other posters professionalism called into question on these boards whereas when a mental health worker says something that other people don't like either through genuine disagreement or a misunderstanding or an assumption based on the least generous interpretation then slurs follow. Its well out of order.

I'm not calling his professionalism into question you pompous twat, I'm expressing my opinion, and making it clear that it is my opinion, that his posts, saying that MH services can do nothing when they quite clearly can and should be doing the same thing as they would with anyone else who is threatening suicide, are irresponsible posting, regardless of his position as a MH worker, just as I would and have if I thought anyone else's posts were irresponsible

But well done to the two of you for (again as Blagsta reminded me earlier) making it all him rather than those who are directly at risk of suicide or those who are unreasonably expected to deal with them.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The piece says workers are advised that feeling upset afterwards is normal. That makes me think they aren't going to be given appropriate training and support. Shit all round

Indeed. Of course negative reactions to a traumatic experience are normal, doesn't mean they don't need to be properly addressed. But that document seems very dismissive and there's no mention of any support available for staff, most likely because there is none.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm not calling his professionalism into question you pompous twat, I'm expressing my opinion, and making it clear that it is my opinion, that his posts, saying that MH services can do nothing when they quite clearly can and should be doing the same thing as they would with anyone else who is threatening suicide, are irresponsible posting, regardless of his position as a MH worker, just as I would and have if I thought anyone else's posts were irresponsible

But well done to the two of you for (again as Blagsta reminded me earlier) making it all him rather than those who are directly at risk of suicide or those who are unreasonably expected to deal with them.

Jesus, you're a self involved twat aren't you.

 

[Blagsta]

BTW, has anyone actually read the six point plan?

 

[SpookyFrank]

its mental health first aid

...which isn't necessarily a bad thing provided that the people doing it are properly trained and provided it is followed up with proper specialist care. Sadly neither of those seems to be the case with the DWP.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not calling his professionalism into question you pompous twat, I'm expressing my opinion, and making it clear that it is my opinion, that his posts, saying that MH services can do nothing when they quite clearly can and should be doing the same thing as they would with anyone else who is threatening suicide, are irresponsible posting, regardless of his position as a MH worker, just as I would and have if I thought anyone else's posts were irresponsible

But well done to the two of you for (again as Blagsta reminded me earlier) making it all him rather than those who are directly at risk of suicide or those who are unreasonably expected to deal with them.

You posted about his background and training in the post before you called him irresponsible. You made the link between his job and his statement. You made clear that you think he has responsibility, hence the word irresponsible.

 

[Blagsta]

...which isn't necessarily a bad thing provided that the people doing it are properly trained and provided it is followed up with proper specialist care. Sadly neither of those seems to be the case with the DWP.

You don't get "proper specialist care" after dealing with a suicidal patient if you're a mental health nurse. You talk about it with colleagues.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You don't get "proper specialist care" after dealing with a suicidal patient if you're a mental health nurse. You talk about it with colleagues.

I meant care for the patient, but no I'm aware that mental health nurses don't get specialist care for this sort of thing. But they will be trained in advance so they'll know what they're doing at least.

Lots of mental health nurses are now being expected to hot-desk or work from home, so that they no longer have that opportunity to talk to colleagues about what they're dealing with. Maybe that will save a small amount of money in the short term but in the long term it will result in many highly trained and experienced people getting burnt out and leaving the profession.