Driving Standards

[mojo pixy]

So imagine you'd been using a wide main 'A-road' in your town/ city for many years that had always had a 30 mph limit, and regularly drove at speeds not even near the limit but around 25-27 mph, which is very prudent for many if not most main thoroughfares.

If that road was overnight changed to a 20 mph limit, because, say, there was a local election and the winning party had made a pledge to introduce city-wide 20 mph limits, would that mean in your opinion that you and just about and everyone else had been driving at unsafe speeds for decades and that the new limit is actually the maximum acceptable speed limit? Or do you accept the possibility that sometimes exceeding the stated speed limit does not mean you"re driving at unsafe speeds?

I broadly agree with the bit in bold. And I'd rather people would drive slower without having laws to oblige it but I'm not sure totally voluntary speed codes would work at this stage in our evolution.

The underlined bit, I agree with - but that doesn't mean I think everyone should flout the speed limits. I don't get the problem really. People argue it's an issue of being a responsible adult and being able to judge a safe speed ourselves. OK. But what's the actual problem with keeping to the limits?

 

[Spymaster]

So what some people are saying is that the speed limits don't apply to them in some circumstances but thats ok because they are really good drivers.

Who said that?

 

[mojo pixy]

So what some people are saying is that the speed limits don't apply to them in some circumstances but thats ok because they are really good drivers.

I guess such people also pay whatever they want in shops rather than the price on the label, because intelligent and responsible adults should be able to work out for themselves how much a thing should cost rather than stick to blanket limits. I like it.

 

[Spymaster]

- but that doesn't mean I think everyone should flout the speed limits.

Again, who's suggested that they should?

WTF's going on here???

 

[DotCommunist]

I guess such people also pay whatever they want in shops rather than the price on the label, because intelligent and responsible adults should be able to work out for themselves how much a thing should cost. I like it.

its an attitude I extend to drugs, tbf.

 

[bimble]

Who said that?

Tbh even i feel like that already and i know objectively that I've no clue what i'm doing really. It must be something about cars that just brings out the arrogant twit in everyone.

 

[mojo pixy]

So what's the actual problem with sticking to speed limits, apart from ego?

Again, who's suggested that they should?

I don't believe the roads would be safer if everybody drove at their / their cars's favourite speed. I don't believe all drivers are capable of judging safe speed, as a matter of fact I believe most aren't. I believe 20mph limits make some people want to drive at 30, and a 30 limit makes those people want to drive at 40 and a 70 limit makes them want to drive at 90. The problem (if there is one) is people behaving with reckless entitlement, not speed limits.

 

[marty21]

I think (my great wisdom here as expert motorist) that some of the problem is due to the blanket imposition of 20mph like in Lambeth where i live. On many of these roads obviously 20 is right, or even less, because they are narrow and there's loads of pedestrians etc. Those roads usually have speed pumps as extra enforcement. But other bits there's big wide straight roads with just a long park railing one side and no shops etc at all and I get why people become frustrated and judge for themselves that going over 20 is safe. So they overtake trundling 20mphers and that then does sometimes get dangerous.

I'm not sure it's blanket in Hackney, my street is 20, the road at the end of the street is 30, I can drive around the roundabout at 30 if I wanted to , and then reduce to 20 on the Lea Bridge Road for about a mile, before speeding up to 30 again.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't believe the roads would be safer if everybody drove at their / their cars's favourite speed. I don't believe all drivers are capable of judging safe speed, as a matter of fact I believe most aren't. I believe 20mph limits make some people want to drive at 30, and a 30 limit makes those people want to drive at 40 and a 70 limit makes them want to drive at 90. The problem (if there is one) is people behaving with reckless entitlement, not speed limits.

Again nobody has suggested driving at "their favourite speed". That's just silly.

I don't have time to do this all over again but there's tons of research around it that points to lower speed limits not necessarily having the effects that you suggest and in some cases even increasing the likelihood of accidents. Speed is certainly a contributory factor to some accidents but by no means all and a bigger factor is how road users perceive the environment they're in.

Nobody here has said they want to break the law or that limits don't apply to them because they're safer drivers . Just that blanket limits and thoughtless traffic calming measures are pointless.

Of course 20mph is appropriate in some circumstances, sometimes much lower. But whacking a limit across a borough without any thought for the road conditions is stupid.

A few links are American but the AA say this:

The UK policy on traffic calming and 20 mph zones needs to be reviewed and new funding and guidelines developed to both reduce vehicle speeds on roads which are purely residential and to improve the local environment, all as part of urban regeneration.

House of Commons - Transport, Local Government and the Regions - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence
https://apps.warwickshire.gov.uk/api/documents/WCCC-764-35
Do 20mph speed limits actually work?
https://www.douglas.co.us/documents/establing-speed-limits.pdf
https://www.codot.gov/library/Brochures/Establishing_Realistic_Speed_Limits_Brochure.pdf
This is a good study by the RAC.

Nobody who knows what they are talking about thinks blanket limits are a good idea. It's lazy planning.

 

[mojo pixy]

So what exactly is the problem with sticking to them anyway?

 

[Dogsauce]

The point of 20mph zones isn’t just about vehicle safety, it’s about creating a better environment for active travel. If for example you want more people cycling, you need other vehicles to be moving at a compatible speed. That’s a big part of it. Your average muggles on a bike-to-work hybrid is going to struggle to change lane on major roads if they are having to squeeze into gaps between large boxes of steel moving at 15mph faster than them. This is more useful on big roads where there is no segregated lanes, obviously.

 

[cupid_stunt]

He's mentioned the 'C' word, on a thread that Spymaster is on - LOL.

 

[Spymaster]

So what exactly is the problem with sticking to them anyway?

Ask someone who doesn't. Personally I do if I know it's a 20 because I don't want to get a ticket but can't say I generally look for speed markers. With the exception of silly 20s you can tell what the limit is by looking at the road so most of the time the speed I'm driving at is at or below the limit anyway. The exceptions are motorways and some DCs where I'll often exceed 70 if it makes sense.

 

[mauvais]

The problem with speed limits, which is not fatal, is twofold, and it's much like all prohibitive regulations.

One, they discourage the individual from making their own evaluations, which in turn would make them a better driver. You can't separate the driver who slows for a pointless 20 limit from the driver who does 70 in a 70 in the fog because it's the limit. You might think you can but they're two sides of the same coin.

The other is that for speed limits to work, because there is not and will never be widespread enforcement, there needs to be faith in the system. Specifically there needs to be a trust relationship between driver and authority whereby the driver believes the limit is there for a good reason, principally to save other people's lives. If you can't justify a limit, in large part experientially, you break this trust, all limits become questionable and the system falls apart. Blanket 20s do a lot of harm in this respect.

 

[mojo pixy]

That's all very well but so far I'm not seeing any reason not to keep while driving to the (admittedly imperfect) speed limits we have, apart from what boils down to I don't wanna.

EtA, I don't live in London so "blanket 20 zones" aren't something I've noticed. There are plenty of 20-limit residential roads in Bristol, but I wouldn't call it blanket coverage. I think this is a London (first world) problem.

 

[mauvais]

That's all very well but so far I'm not seeing any reason not to keep while driving to the (admittedly imperfect) speed limits we have, apart from what boils down to I don't wanna.

EtA, I don't live in London so "blanket 20 zones" aren't something I've noticed. There are plenty of 20-limit residential areas in Bristol, but I wouldn't call it blanket coverage. I think this is a London (first world) problem.

I don't live in London, never have, and I rarely go there, so not quite. They rolled them out in lots of places. Greater Manchester has rightly given up on theirs.

 

[hash tag]

I think (my great wisdom here as expert motorist) that some of the problem is due to the blanket imposition of 20mph like in Lambeth where i live. On many of these roads obviously 20 is right, or even less, because they are narrow and there's loads of pedestrians etc. Those roads usually have speed pumps as extra enforcement. But other bits there's big wide straight roads with just a long park railing one side and no shops etc at all and I get why people become frustrated and judge for themselves that going over 20 is safe. So they overtake trundling 20mphers and that then does sometimes get dangerous.

I have posted to this effect somewhere already; I quite like the blanket 20 limit; you know where you stand. It is crazy that Wandsworth have a 30 limit on side roads, you then drive into a main road operated by Lambeth and it becomes a 20 limit; madness

Blanket imposition of 20mph is crazy, around here there's proposals for 20mph on residential streets, but not the 'prime routes' across the town.

Agree, to a point.

Tbh even i feel like that already and i know objectively that I've no clue what i'm doing really. It must be something about cars that just brings out the arrogant twit in everyone.

Many people do become arrogant, bad tempered Etc. when they they get behind the wheel; even my spouse starts swearing at other drivers occasionally (especially at BMW and Audi drivers) and she would never normally say boo to a goose. bimble losing your rag behind the wheel can be dangerous; please don't, please stay calm and rational, it is safer for you, it is safer for those around you. Doon't lower yourself to that level, rise above it! x

Besides, what is the average speed in town; as a regular Wandsworth driver, I think myself lucky if I can reach an average of 20 MPH in normal daytime conditions.

 

[bimble]

Oh I’ve never yet got irate I’m having too much fun still. I’m polite (so far) make space for people etc, like in real life. I enjoy that added awareness of adapting, within reason, to what everyone’s trying to do. But have definitely speeded / sped, not always unknowingly either.
Just by the way have driven every day since getting the car and my overall feeling is that people are a lot friendlier and more considerate out there than I thought they'd be. P plates still on they may help don't know.

 

[Spymaster]

P plates still on they may help don't know.

Take them off for a few days and see how you get on. It'll be interesting to hear what you think about that.

 

[bimble]

Yep will do that. A few days ago was at red lights with a bus to my right in the next lane. The bus driver asked me in hand signals whether I was turning left or going ahead. Thought that was very gallant of him, after I’d figured out that I hadn’t done anything wrong he was just being courteous.

 

[hash tag]

You were not in a left turn or straight ahead lane only were you or had an indicator going?

 

[Spymaster]

Yep will do that. A few days ago was at red lights with a bus to my right in the next lane. The bus driver asked me in hand signals whether I was turning left or going ahead. Thought that was very gallant of him, after I’d figured out that I hadn’t done anything wrong he was just being courteous.

Why would you be turning left if you're not indicating left? Bloke was a dick.

 

[Spymaster]

EtA, I don't live in London so "blanket 20 zones" aren't something I've noticed. There are plenty of 20-limit residential roads in Bristol, but I wouldn't call it blanket coverage. I think this is a London (first world) problem.

Don't know about elsewhere but quite a few London boroughs have borough-wide 20 mph limits. I was driving through Camden about half an hour ago and not one single car was observing it along Adelaide Rd. Everyone was doing 30.

 

[hash tag]

Croydon, Merton, Sutton and wandsworth do not have blanket 20 zones, in fact part of Trinity Road is actually a 40 zone. I'm guessing park lane, Piccadilly and Euston roads are not 20.

 

[Spymaster]

Park Lane is quite a fast road when it's clear and it's in Westminster so no silly 20s. It's 30 at the Marble Arch end and 40 at the bottom I think.

 

[mojo pixy]

Don't know about elsewhere but quite a few London boroughs have borough-wide 20 mph limits. I was driving through Camden about half an hour ago and not one single car was observing it along Adelaide Rd. Everyone was doing 30.

All in Audis and BMWs and Range Rovers, no doubt.

 

[Spymaster]

All in Audis and BMWs and Range Rovers, no doubt.

No, that was just me as far as I remember. The point is that silly speed limits are ignored and that feeds into what Mauvais was saying earlier. They can't put cameras or coppers on every street so they rely on drivers choosing to comply. If the limits are stupid they get ignored which knocks-on to other areas. Did you read those links I posted earlier? The RAC one and the Colorado one are quite interesting.

 

[mx wcfc]

Winchester has a blanket 20 zone in the city centre and on the estates. My daughter's car has one of those insurance black boxes, so I have to stick to 20 when I'm driving it. All that happens is people overtake dangerously, or sit two yards behind you in a dangerous way.

 

[hash tag]

There was me believing it when someone told me speed cameras are only installed after one or two incidents have occurred in the same place. Another myth busted.

 

[mojo pixy]

No, that was just me as far as I remember. The point is that silly speed limits are ignored and that feeds into what Mauvais was saying earlier. They can't put cameras or coppers on every street so they rely on drivers choosing to comply. If the limits are stupid they get ignored which knocks-on to other areas. Did you read those links I posted earlier? The RAC one and the Colorado one are quite interesting.

Surely all laws rely on people choosing to comply? There are hundreds of crimes you can commit daily and never get caught.