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Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

With Trump, even the minimal references to policy are mere dog whistles rather than things for the voters to evaluate and compare (Mexico, trans rights etc.). His speeches, particularly over the last couple of weeks could be reduced down to single words and phrases, he doesn't need actual sentences. sick... crazy Nancy... fake... very bad person.

I don't want to see a return to smooth, rational technocratic neo-liberalism, but the move to politics as paranoia seems to be speeding up. :(
It’s the collapse of something and the replacement of it with something else. Or something.

That’s as far as I get. All tied up with tech. To understand us now one should look at what the tech does not what the human does.
 
👍

It always has been to a greater or lesser extent but this is so much different. Try and untangle it and it becomes almost impossible. Try and envisage a way out and it becomes impossible.
Yeah, certainly and politics has never been about voters running a slide rule over the manifestos. It's always been about identity, emotions and feelings, reflecting real shit in people's lives. The Trump thing however, along with other populist movements, are seeking to reshape the political sphere and the old rules and checks and balances.

I feel weird saying that as I'm far from being a fan of 'liberal democracy'. But in the absence of a developed left or a workers movement, that reshaping potentially takes us somewhere far worse.
 
With Trump, even the minimal references to policy are mere dog whistles rather than things for the voters to evaluate and compare (Mexico, trans rights etc.). His speeches, particularly over the last couple of weeks could be reduced down to single words and phrases, he doesn't need actual sentences. sick... crazy Nancy... fake... very bad person.

I don't want to see a return to smooth, rational technocratic neo-liberalism, but the move to politics as paranoia seems to be speeding up. :(
Yeh he’s a literal walking lie machine, an empty vessel who just spouts lies to stay afloat. In and of itself, okay so what. The disturbing thing is he’s liked by tens of millions
 
Basically any old jibbering crackpot has a sustainable future is what he spells out, that’s the standard he has set.
 
Beyond just that, I think a larger number of politicians belive their own bullshit. I really think that is one of the biggest political shifts of the last few years.
Yes, I similarly wonder about Boris Johnson. He lies all the time and has probably got to the point where the fact that he says something lodges it in his mind as a kind of truth. Hearing him say he was very surprised to hear that parties were taking place in Downing Street, parties that he attended and even organised, was quite something. As with Trump, self interest determines truth and there's nothing other than self interest.
 
Results in so far reveal dead heat between Trump and Harris:

The traditional first tally of the 2024 US presidential elections in the tiny village of Dixville Notch, in New Hampshire’s northern tip, ended in a deadlock: three votes to Kamala Harris and three for Donald Trump.

It took approximately 12 minutes to count and certify the votes of the six residents of this tiny community near the Canadian border, which has been casting its ballots at midnight on election day for decades.


Man, imagine living in that village!
 
Yes, I similarly wonder about Boris Johnson. He lies all the time and has probably got to the point where the fact that he says something lodges it in his mind as a kind of truth. Hearing him say he was very surprised to hear that parties were taking place in Downing Street, parties that he attended and even organised, was quite something. As with Trump, self interest determines truth and there's nothing other than self interest.
They both meet Harry Frankfurt's definition of bullshitters rather than liars. Lies are anti-truth, bullshit bears no relation to truth.
 
Yes, I similarly wonder about Boris Johnson. He lies all the time and has probably got to the point where the fact that he says something lodges it in his mind as a kind of truth. Hearing him say he was very surprised to hear that parties were taking place in Downing Street, parties that he attended and even organised, was quite something. As with Trump, self interest determines truth and there's nothing other than self interest.
Yes, basically 'truth' is now reframed to mean 'that which serves my interests'. In the case of people like Trump or Johnson, something's actual truth is simply irrelevant. If this were true, would that further my aims? That's the consideration.

But the other crucial factor is that you need an audience that is equally at home with your bullshit. Unfortunately, I think all humans are susceptible to believing something because they want it to be true. It is an inbuilt capacity, one that quite possible has survival benefit - happy people tend to be overly optimistic and not the greatest at making predictions as a result. So we actively have to guard against it, and those who don't guard against it when it comes to political choices are - evidently - pretty numerous.

Trump was constantly fact-checked. Why? Well it could be because he was constantly bullshitting. Or it could be because the establishment is out to get him and he isn't being treated fairly. You'd think it would be straightforward to tell which of these is true, but clearly it isn't.

It's very hard to say the above without sounding elitist. Like I say, I think it is something we're all susceptible to. But I don't think we're all equal in our susceptibility. And I don't know quite what can be done about that.
 
On Radio 4 this morning I heard a discussion comparing Trump's lies to those of Nixon. The core of it was Nixon lied, knew he lied and tried to get away with it, but all the while knew the difference between lies and truth. Trump makes no distinction and is all self interest. An appeal to voters on the basis of aggressive and resentful emotions, not anything checkable. He's certainly a liar, but there's no appeal to anything that might be seen as an objective truth, which is slightly different. And how do you combat that?

Lying comes as naturally to Trump as breathing imo. I doubt if he knows he's doing it most of the time. I think he genuinely believes the utter shit he comes out with.

He's delusional.
 
Yes, basically 'truth' is now reframed to mean 'that which serves my interests'. In the case of people like Trump or Johnson, something's actual truth is simply irrelevant. If this were true, would that further my aims? That's the consideration.

But the other crucial factor is that you need an audience that is equally at home with your bullshit. Unfortunately, I think all humans are susceptible to believing something because they want it to be true. It is an inbuilt capacity, one that quite possible has survival benefit - happy people tend to be overly optimistic and not the greatest at making predictions as a result. So we actively have to guard against it, and those who don't guard against it when it comes to political choices are - evidently - pretty numerous.

Trump was constantly fact-checked. Why? Well it could be because he was constantly bullshitting. Or it could be because the establishment is out to get him and he isn't being treated fairly. You'd think it would be straightforward to tell which of these is true, but clearly it isn't.

It's very hard to say the above without sounding elitist. Like I say, I think it is something we're all susceptible to. But I don't think we're all equal in our susceptibility. And I don't know quite what can be done about that.

I can recall reading a study - which I can fry and find when I’m not on my phone - testing Trump supporters’ belief in what Trump says. The study has two groups. The control group is given a bunch of Trump statements and they are asked to rate them as true or false. This group overwhelmingly said Trump’s statements were true, even the one’s that were obvious lies. The second group were given the same task but with a cash incentive to get the answers right. This group did much better at identifying Trump’s false statements.

The authors of the study explain this phenomenon by what they term ‘cheerleading’ - where agreement with Trump’s statements is merely an assertion of support for Trump rather a genuine attempt to track the truth. This suggests that it isn’t just Trump who’s the bullshitter, many of his supporters are too.

(I think the study also looked at dems and also found a discrepancy between the test and control groups but it wasn’t as pronounced as the Trumpists).
 
I can recall reading a study - which I can fry and find when I’m not on my phone - testing Trump supporters’ belief in what Trump says. The study has two groups. The control group is given a bunch of Trump statements and they are asked to rate them as true or false. This group overwhelmingly said Trump’s statements were true, even the one’s that were obvious lies. The second group were given the same task but with a cash incentive to get the answers right. This group did much better at identifying Trump’s false statements.

The authors of the study explain this phenomenon by what they term ‘cheerleading’ - where agreement with Trump’s statements is merely an assertion of support for Trump rather a genuine attempt to track the truth. This suggests that it isn’t just Trump who’s the bullshitter, many of his supporters are too.

(I think the study also looked at dems and also found a discrepancy between the test and control groups but it wasn’t as pronounced as the Trumpists).
i listened to one of those liberal politics podcasts a few weeks ago, I think the bunker or something, and someone made the point on it that Trump is always throwing around details and statistics etc which 'sound' convincing even if they are complete bollocks, whereas Harris speeches are fairly vague and light on detail, and therefore she could sound less convincing to some people.
 
The bullshit phenomenon is very common in politics of course - well beyond Trump. What makes Trump’s bullshit so disorienting though is that he makes no effort to make it coherent or internally consistent (I guess philosophically that’s just what bullshit entails)- he zigs and zags between totally contradictory statements, sometimes even in the same speech. The Putinists call this the ‘fire hose of falsehoods’ approach and Bannon calls it ‘flooding the zone with shit’. It’s goal is to exhaust and confuse opponents, to wear them down. By the time you’ve fact checked one lie, 10 more have been spun. Hopefully Trump will be defeated and jailed, but the epistemic violence he’s unleashed in the US and on the world will cast a long shadow. You see how the likes of slicker politicians like J D Vance are mastering and supercharging these rhetorical devises.
 
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The bullshit phenomenon is very common in politics of course - well beyond Trump. What makes Trump’s bullshit so disorienting though is that he makes no effort to make it coherent or internally consistent (I guess philosophically that’s just what bullshit entails)- he zigs and zags between totally contradictory statements, sometimes even in the same speech. The Putinists call this the ‘fire hose of falsehoods’ approach and Bannon calls it ‘flooding the zone with shut’. It’s goal is to exhaust and confuse opponents, to wear them down. By the time you’ve fact checked one lie, 10 more have been spun. Hopefully Trump will be defeated and jailed, but the epistemic violence he’s unleashed in the US and on the world will cast a long shadow. You see how the likes of slicker politicians like J D Vance are mastering and supercharging these rhetorical devises.
'Weaving'. Yuk.
 
they made the point as well that the election could 'look' rigged because in some states, the mail in ballots are only counted well after those that are voted on the day, and sometimes the mail in ballots lean more towards one party than another.
 
The bullshit phenomenon is very common in politics of course - well beyond Trump. What makes Trump’s bullshit so disorienting though is that he makes no effort to make it coherent or internally consistent (I guess philosophically that’s just what bullshit entails)- he zigs and zags between totally contradictory statements, sometimes even in the same speech. The Putinists call this the ‘fire hose of falsehoods’ approach and Bannon calls it ‘flooding the zone with shit’. It’s goal is to exhaust and confuse opponents, to wear them down. By the time you’ve fact checked one lie, 10 more have been spun. Hopefully Trump will be defeated and jailed, but the epistemic violence he’s unleashed in the US and on the world will cast a long shadow. You see how the likes of slicker politicians like J D Vance are mastering and supercharging these rhetorical devises.
Shitmisting
 
The bullshit phenomenon is very common in politics of course - well beyond Trump. What makes Trump’s bullshit so disorienting though is that he makes no effort to make it coherent or internally consistent (I guess philosophically that’s just what bullshit entails)- he zigs and zags between totally contradictory statements, sometimes even in the same speech. The Putinists call this the ‘fire hose of falsehoods’ approach and Bannon calls it ‘flooding the zone with shit’. It’s goal is to exhaust and confuse opponents, to wear them down. By the time you’ve fact checked one lie, 10 more have been spun. Hopefully Trump will be defeated and jailed, but the epistemic violence he’s unleashed in the US and on the world will cast a long shadow. You see how the likes of slicker politicians like J D Vance are mastering and supercharging these rhetorical devises.
i can remember when he first oozed onto the scene in an interview, by the Wash Post or someone, and he was just looking at them blankly, and to almost every question he was just saying "fake news!" "fake news!". and, politics aside, i thought wow that is such a dangerous, lethal game to play. You are playing with the "shared narrative" in a very insideous way. There's one thing fighting facts wtih facts, but just outright dismissing it all is somethign else entirely. He's basically accusing people of lying, and by doing so: lying. without shame, over and over.
These were pretty inocuous questions put to him - but still, he wanted to set the ball rolling, that it's all a ploy to get poor him. I am sure you can all remember it, the "fake news!" years - where everything was"fake news!" so you have fairly well established legally bound [though of course with bias, with own interests. etc] news organisations, and individual journalists, totally discredited, without any grey area at all. and listen now to his supporters, their trust in institutions, especially media ones, is completely broken, almost completely absent. Instead you have in their place whirling hell holes of social media grifters, lunatics, and charlatans. the average trump supporter, i dare to guess, could do no worse than sitting down with teh NYT or the Wash Post and reading it, front to cover, every day - and yes apologies if that sounds elitist, perhaps it is slightly. But no, instead, the whole thing, the whole operation, is consigned to teh trash bin, largely because of this orange lunatic.
 

The Polymarket betting odds are being shared furiously by Trumpers. complete bullshit, but no doubt will feed the idea that the Dems have stolen the election etc if he loses.

 
I can recall reading a study - which I can fry and find when I’m not on my phone - testing Trump supporters’ belief in what Trump says. The study has two groups. The control group is given a bunch of Trump statements and they are asked to rate them as true or false. This group overwhelmingly said Trump’s statements were true, even the one’s that were obvious lies. The second group were given the same task but with a cash incentive to get the answers right. This group did much better at identifying Trump’s false statements.

The authors of the study explain this phenomenon by what they term ‘cheerleading’ - where agreement with Trump’s statements is merely an assertion of support for Trump rather a genuine attempt to track the truth. This suggests that it isn’t just Trump who’s the bullshitter, many of his supporters are too.

(I think the study also looked at dems and also found a discrepancy between the test and control groups but it wasn’t as pronounced as the Trumpists).
That's a nice, simple idea for a study. I wonder if being forced (well, incentivised) into naming the lies had any lasting effect on that second group, or did they go straight back to 'believing' the lies afterwards? How conscious are the people of their own behaviour in this context?
 
Yes, I similarly wonder about Boris Johnson. He lies all the time and has probably got to the point where the fact that he says something lodges it in his mind as a kind of truth. Hearing him say he was very surprised to hear that parties were taking place in Downing Street, parties that he attended and even organised, was quite something. As with Trump, self interest determines truth and there's nothing other than self interest.

Self-serving for sure but I think his brand of lying points more to innate entitlement on his part, more than anything else. That his lies come from a place where rules are for fools and don't and shouldn't apply to him and those like him.
 
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Sebastian Salek
@sebastiansalek

Trumpism is alive and well in Britain.Several major figures in UK politics have endorsed the former president in some quite shocking ways.Here are 7 of them:

Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Suella Braverman, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Jake Berry, Kwasi Kwarteng, and Robert Jenrick - all failures, and the seven biggest cunts in UK politics.
 
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