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Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

Useful thread from Tom Nomad, who usually has some interesting stuff to say:
Whole thing is very long but here's some highlights:
The entire conspiracy last time developed in real time on election day, as it became increasingly clear that Trump was underperforming. On the evening of the election, when things were still very close, and absentee ballots had not been reported, Trump declared himself victor, based on the reporting of vote totals that were being given out live on TV. The ability to utilize real time media in the construction of a conspiracy is incredibly powerful, and Trump used it remarkably well after he lost in 2020.

This convinces me of two things that will almost certainly happen on election night. The first is that we are not going to know who won, it will still be too close and the media is likely to be a lot more shy about calling things after the last time. The actual totals are unlikely to be clear for at least a week, and likely longer as campaigns demand recounts. The second thing, and I am almost certain of this, Trump will say he won anyway.

For a while I have been saying, in a number of venues, that we have to take the things the right wing says seriously, even if we know that usually it is bullshit. If we take on that perspective, we can already start to see this strategy coming together. The first indicator of this is the non-involvement the Trump campaign has in its own on-the-ground outreach. For this entire cycle Trump has been pushing the RNC to move away from voter registration, and instead train "election integrity watchers". The Trump campaign itself has almost no ground operation.

Instead he has outsourced all of that to Elon Musk, who, in turn, has been running an outreach campaign so shady and haphazard that not only are the numbers that canvassers are returning (counting doors knocked, voter preference, etc) to the campaign potentially wildly inflated, they are potentially so off that they are essentially useless. This was also the result of America PAC (which Musk runs) outsourcing to subcontractors who hired random people, didn't tell them what they were going to campaign for, and then threatened to not pay for food or lodging unless the canvassers hit unbelievable and unattainable numbers.

The RNC, on the other hand, following the Trump campaign has also made a number of moves. They have followed through on training these "election integrity watchers", claiming to have trained tens of thousands. They have also undergone staffing changes, where all attorneys that were not on-board for the whole stolen election thing have been pushed out and replaced with Trump loyalists. The money that the Trump campaign would have been spending on ground outreach, they have instead used to hire attorneys as well.

The rhetoric of the Trump campaign itself is also notable. The Trump campaign started talking about a stolen election around 3 months ago. Since that time that narrative has done nothing but deepen. Now, the rallies he does are grievance filled conspiracy fests about how this election is going to get stolen by the evil Democrats, even though the election has not even happened yet. From a legal perspective it is absurd to claim that someone cheated in a thing that has not happened, but in right wing politics, that is preparing the ground.

This all seems to add up to the possibility of another Fall-Winter 2020-2021 again. It seems as if we have one party dedicated to tearing apart the electoral system to gain and hold onto power. They seem, just as then, willing to say anything, do anything, and manipulate anyone in the service of this goal. The political realities of elections in general in the US lead to this unique opening for conspiracies to arise. So, we should all be gearing up for mass right wing rallies and stuff...right?

Actually, the likelihood of this happening in the same way it did in 2020 are probably pretty slim. The rhetoric is heated like it was in 2020, but there are two major changes that have happened since that time in right wing political spaces. The first is a languishing sense of enthusiasm. Many people have commented on it during this cycle, but this is an important point, people are leaving his rallies early, and fewer are showing up. It is just not that exciting after a decade of the same guy yelling about the same stuff, especially when he aimlessly rants. That would never have happened in the past cycles.

Secondly, there is a sense now in the right wing that breaking laws in the name of political goals can have actual consequences. I think anyone that is involved in anarchist spaces has known this for years, as we have fought off wave after wave of mass repression. Remember, though, many conservatives felt that state violence against protesters was justified, because it was against "ANTIFA" or something, and that it would never happen to "good people". If that violence did happen to them, then it was just a few bad apple cops and Trump would pardon them. It sounds absurd to think this, but go back to boards on thedonald.win from back in 2020, and this perspective is almost universally held.

Now that hundreds have been convicted of serious stuff, taken away from their friends and family, fired from their jobs, and sent to prison, without Trump stepping in, that sense has changed. Now, when journalists talk to Trump supporters, outside of the agro dudes, you find a lot of people that are not willing to take things to that level again, that recognize that there are significant consequences, and that they are just going to wait out the next 4 years if Trump loses. We also don't have the far right escalating things this time (they are relatively disorganized right now), and playing the role of open, state sanctioned vigilantes.

If we are to game this situation out, that means that we can start to expect things to heat up right about now. We are already seeing an uptick in this talk about a stolen election, this setting of the ground, and that is just going to escalate until the election. Lawsuits are already being filed by Republicans all over the country, trying to purge voter rolls.

On election day itself I would speculate that we are not going to know what the result is going to be. The reality of this election is that this is all about 5% of people in 5-7 states; the rest of us don't matter. With margins that small, it is very likely that these states will be close, and will require recounts, at least in some cases. As a result, like last time, we are unlikely to have any sort of result for a little while.

At that same time we will probably start seeing their legal strategy play itself out. Just like last time they seem poised to utilize a staged strategy, escalating their approach as they watch their ability to resolve it to their liking within the legal system dissolve with every lost case. I would argue that, especially because they have already started to claim the election was stolen before it was over, they are going to have an equally difficult time in court.

The pattern that was followed last time was the attempt to essentially create a parallel electoral outcome, and invalidate the official outcome. This took the form of fake electors, sending in fake documents, to the National Archive falsely certifying election results. Many of the people involved in this scheme the first time are now either convicted felons or under indictment, and it is going to be a lot harder to find people to do the same things again.

Now, of course we all know what happens when that strategy fails, they unleash their supporters on state capitals all across the US, culminating in January 6th. It is important to remember that January 6th happened in pretty specific conditions; pandemic, lockdown, mass unemployment, lots of lost businesses, lots of divorces, the fragmenting of the social fabric. It was a climate uniquely suited for the proliferation of conspiracies through a fusion of extreme messages and social isolation due to lockdown. Those conditions have changed, many people have gone to prison for January 6th, Trump did not save them, and so there is not likely to be the same sort of outpouring of violent support.

That does not mean that MAGA goes quietly into the night, probably far from it. If Trump loses two dynamics will emerge very quickly, and already are starting to. The first is the lone wolf action targeted politically. Many of those types of actions have been based in social violence, attacking a group of people. What we are seeing emerge now is the emergence of a similar figure, but this time targeted at politicians and other political targets.

The emergence of this dynamic, when coupled with the long running discussion among the far right about infrastructure attacks, leads to a disturbing possibility; the emergence of wide scale social attacks as a way to "attack the system" or something along those lines. We already see that rhetoric among accelerationists, but the people that have emerged recently come from outside of those circles by all accounts. We are watching a bit of leakage of that mentality and tactic set out of the traditional far right, and watching it morph into a new form.
Though your average Trump supporter is probably not going to go as wild as they did in 2020, that does not mean that we won't see either localized right wing violence or attacks against whole cities, or parts of cities, and the infrastructure that supports them. For those of us, and this includes me, who live in leftist areas of otherwise right wing parts of the country, we need to be watching what is happening around us, and taking it seriously.

That does not mean that everyone should go dig a bunker right now or something. Rather, and regardless of what the outcome of the election is, this is a reminder to have some basic things in place to make yourself and your community more able to deal with crisis. Whether we are responding to right wing violence or state repression having access to communications networks that are encrypted, backup means of communication, a place set to meet with friends if that is your threat model, and at least some supplies so you don't need to get them in the middle of a crisis.

These are things we should probably have in place all the time, but let us use this as a reminder of the importance of resiliency and mutual support. The next period of time is going to probably get difficult. Anarchists in the US, we have been through this before, and have been locked in a conflict with the state that has been more or less acute for the better part of a decade, without a break. We know how to prepare, to back one another up, and to defend the things we hold dear. All I can ask is that you all hold those principles close, take solace in our experiences, and steel ourselves for what may come.
 
And here's what Matthew Lyons from Three-Way Fight sez:
In 2020 I described the US presidential race between Joe Biden and Donald Trump as a choice not between a lesser evil and a greater evil, but between the abysmal and the catastrophic. This year, with Kamala Harris versus Trump, we get to choose between a Democratic option more abysmal than four years ago and a Republican option even more catastrophic than last time. On one side, Trump has amped up the supremacist lies, calls to violence, and nakedly dictatorial fantasies to unprecedented levels, while the MAGA forces behind him have been working diligently to make an effective, organized authoritarianism much more likely this time around. On the other side, Harris seems intent on embracing Republican positions on everything except abortion rights, while remaining committed to funding Israel’s ever-intensifying genocide in Gaza and beyond.

US presidential elections have always been a caricature of democracy, but this is the most appalling no-win “choice” US voters have faced in my lifetime, maybe ever. Yet both major party options reflect systemic developments stretching back decades—two sides of a trend that has made the disconnect between political system and basic human decency more and more obvious.

In the notes that follow I want to look at the Trump side of this contest. Drawing on my writings over the past nine years, I offer some tentative reflections on how Trump and the MAGA movement have evolved and what they can tell us about the US political system today. One way or another, whoever wins the presidency, these developments will be unavoidable in the years ahead.
 
More on the bastard's death threat from Glenn, a former Federal Prosecutor. He mentions the fact that he is out on bail. Realistically speaking, they won't haul him in this close to the election. But as he says, the minute Kamala wins, they need to haul his fat arse in. It's so fucking disgusting that he can get away with this because there are a couple of days to go.

 
Was he really threatening her?

In a lengthy and uncompromising riff on Cheney, Trump seemed to insinuate that the former congresswoman would be less of a “war hawk” — as Trump referred to her — if she was in a war herself with guns “trained on her face.”

“She’s a radical war hawk. Let’s put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her,” Trump said. “Okay, let’s see how she feels about it. You know when the guns are trained on her face — you know, they’re all war hawks when they’re sitting in Washington in a nice building,” Trump continued.

In a post on his Truth Social website Friday afternoon, Trump said that Cheney "wouldn’t have “the guts” to fight herself. It’s easy for her to talk, sitting far from where the death scenes take place, but put a gun in her hand, and let her go fight, and she’ll say, 'No thanks!'"


Of course Trump is a dangerous shithead who belongs in prison for all kinds of reasons, but I definitely wouldn't have objected to somebody saying the same thing about a Cheney 20 years ago
 
Was he really threatening her?

In a lengthy and uncompromising riff on Cheney, Trump seemed to insinuate that the former congresswoman would be less of a “war hawk” — as Trump referred to her — if she was in a war herself with guns “trained on her face.”

“She’s a radical war hawk. Let’s put her with a rifle standing there with nine barrels shooting at her,” Trump said. “Okay, let’s see how she feels about it. You know when the guns are trained on her face — you know, they’re all war hawks when they’re sitting in Washington in a nice building,” Trump continued.

In a post on his Truth Social website Friday afternoon, Trump said that Cheney "wouldn’t have “the guts” to fight herself. It’s easy for her to talk, sitting far from where the death scenes take place, but put a gun in her hand, and let her go fight, and she’ll say, 'No thanks!'"


Of course Trump is a dangerous shithead who belongs in prison for all kinds of reasons, but I definitely wouldn't have objected to somebody saying the same thing about a Cheney 20 years ago
Yes.

The bs he and his sycophants are now spewing is ridiculous. It won't wash in a court of law, as Glenn has just said in the vid. A judge definitely said he knew what he was doing when he targeted others, after claiming he is not responsible for what his supporters do.

I'm not a Cheney fan on her previous record, but she has my admiration here for having the balls to stand up to the evil, cowardly bastard. He is just trying to muddy the waters here, after doing his usual shitty thing to incite his mob. Shameful.
 
Trump’s “celebrity” supporters are the worst bunch of deranged freaks imaginable. Of course they include Brand and Musk but also Mel Gibson, Hulk Hogan and Kayne West. Also a rapper called Kodak Black who was recently convicted of sexually battering and assaulting a high school girl.


 
Yes.

The bs he and his sycophants are now spewing is ridiculous. It won't wash in a court of law, as Glenn has just said in the vid. A judge definitely said he knew what he was doing when he targeted others, after claiming he is not responsible for what his supporters do.

I'm not a Cheney fan on her previous record, but she has my admiration here for having the balls to stand up to the evil, cowardly bastard. He is just trying to muddy the waters here, after doing his usual shitty thing to incite his mob. Shameful.
In practice, he's adding to an atmosphere of threat around his many opponents and certainly 'rifles targeted on her face' is inflammatory. However I'm with Yossarian , in that I could well have come out with something similar about various politicians over the years. Maybe Glenn is right that this is part of a wider pattern of comments that breach his pre sentencing conditions, but I'm not convinced that those specific words were in of themselves criminal. And anyway, I'd rather he was imprisoned as a rapist than for any of this.
 
Anecdatum:

A US friend living in the midwest, who is highly intelligent, well educated, measured, elderly, passionately on the left, worked all his life in charities in the middle East (whose background is far more complicated than that) startled me when he said that if Trump gets in [note, 'gets in', not 'wins'] 'we're going to have to find ways of resisting a Trump presidency'.
He's always struck me as one to behave by the book - and yet armed resistance seems to be what he's suggesting.
Suggesting without actually saying it, iysim. I know him well enough.

Shudder.

FWIW (ie, nothing) I'm not expecting Trump to win anything, but to claim victory on Tuesday night and thereafter to claim fraud. I'm expecting Harris to win far bigger than polls have predicted. And for that to mean nothing.
 
He's always struck me as one to behave by the book - and yet armed resistance seems to be what he's suggesting.

it's crossed my mind too, though i've never laid a hand on a gun in my life.
democrats are bringing ballots to a gunfight. J6 was a dry run, as the c*nts themselves said.

FWIW (ie, nothing) I'm not expecting Trump to win anything, but to claim victory on Tuesday night and thereafter to claim fraud. I'm expecting Harris to win far bigger than polls have predicted.

right. it's well seen, the number of lawsuits that trumpers have prepared. but there is quite a track record of failure for them.
 
Hopefully more charges coming his way. These fucking sycophants twisting everything he says to defend the bastard are sick. He should be behind bars not running for office. He's free on bail, so every violation should have landed him in prison. Only a few more days and hopefully they can drag his sorry arse there when he's sentenced for some of his crimes.


I'm not convinced that more charges are really helpful, at least in the next 5 days. Almost certainly feeds into the grand persecution complex he's embedded into his own supporters. Talking about and attacking him using violent language against women may add to more women voters voting against him, even tying it the various accusations of abuse made against him. But getting the state to run with this probably doesn't help. If he loses, we'll see how things turn out. Could be less violent reaction than 2020 or could be more. Either way, he'll be headed for the inside of a court room at some point. Though... don't see him ever serving a day inside, sadly.
 
sad thing about the idea of people taking up arms against trump if he is elected
is it what most of this true base want a race and theological war within the united states
True. Talk about giving the 'exterminate all dem voters' contingent what they've been openly begging for to get the ball rolling on Civil war 2. OTOH, that side of the equation are also planning similarly. The trump lot really are a psychologically challenged shower of cunts.
 
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Anecdatum:

A US friend living in the midwest, who is highly intelligent, well educated, measured, elderly, passionately on the left, worked all his life in charities in the middle East (whose background is far more complicated than that) startled me when he said that if Trump gets in [note, 'gets in', not 'wins'] 'we're going to have to find ways of resisting a Trump presidency'.
He's always struck me as one to behave by the book - and yet armed resistance seems to be what he's suggesting.
Suggesting without actually saying it, iysim. I know him well enough.

Shudder.

FWIW (ie, nothing) I'm not expecting Trump to win anything, but to claim victory on Tuesday night and thereafter to claim fraud. I'm expecting Harris to win far bigger than polls have predicted. And for that to mean nothing.

I reckon there is a significant chance of civil war breaking out in the US - either from Trump supporters staging successful coups in state capitols after losing the election, or from resistance arising from Trump's mass deportations. An escalation of political violence to the point of a de-facto insurgency is quite plausible.

An attempt at contesting the election results should Trump lose is basically inevitable, we just need to hope it turns out to be a bit of a damp squib again.
 
I reckon there is a significant chance of civil war breaking out in the US - either from Trump supporters staging successful coups in state capitols after losing the election, or from resistance arising from Trump's mass deportations. An escalation of political violence to the point of a de-facto insurgency is quite plausible.

An attempt at contesting the election results should Trump lose is basically inevitable, we just need to hope it turns out to be a bit of a damp squib again.

Agreed. Trump will never concede defeat. Aside from his egomania, he has too much to lose - huge debts and multiple civil lawsuits and criminal prosecutions pending, the shield of presidential immunity is existential for him. He’s captured a mass base and the blind locality of the Republican Party too.
 
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Don't even try that bollox with me, If you think Pakistan is a well developed society then you need your head examined
Why mention Pakistan and not India?


A new World Health Organisation (WHO) report says more than half a billion people in India still "continue to defecate in gutters, behind bushes or in open water bodies, with no dignity or privacy".
 
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