Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[ska invita]

Yes. If the USA followed its self-interest it would ally with the Arabs, who have the oil, which is what the USA needs. The USA has paid a very heavy price for its alliance with Israel, attracting widespread opprobrium for very little recompence.

I agree that there's a moral case for supporting Israel, but international politics isn't conducted on the basis of morality.

So afaics the only reason the USA supports Israel is the lobby. What else could it be?

Because as in south america or the east or africa, the interests of the "arab" world rarely align with those of the US. Where they can do business - relationship with Saudi for example - they do. Saddam and Gaddaffi for example did not play ball and had to be destroyed. The fact this is aligns with the wishes of Israeli ultranationalists is what makes it a mutually beneficial relationship.

And the UK is the 51st?

yes! but that was tongue in cheek.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Even from within that it says "Clearly, it would be wrong to blame the war in Iraq on ‘Jewish influence’. Rather, it was due in large part to the Lobby’s influence, especially that of the neo-conservatives within it. " and yet "The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president."

Israel is like the 52nd US state...it provides a foothold for the US military in the middle east. That is its purpose for US foreing policy. To quote Biden "if it didnt exist we would have to invent it". Israeli governments have their agenda, and lobby for it, but they do not lead. It just so happens it neatly overlaps with US foreign policy objectives in the vast majority of cases. "Securing Israel" is in effect securing a US military outpost.

The article argues otherwise. As dwyer says, it argues that the US's uncritical support for Israel is the source of most of its problems in the region. Given that it was written 18 years ago, the article is quite prescient. It describes the levels of control Israeli lobbyists exert over aspects of government and the media, but how it finds it harder to control what happens in universities. That's quite a decent description of what is happening right now in the US regarding debate over Palestine-Israel. It also describes how Israel frequently refuses to act like the obedient client state, again prescient given events of the last few months.

Some of the facts outlined in the article are indisputable: Israel does receive disproportionately massive aid; it is given this aid unquestioningly in a way that no other state is granted; a very well-run and effective Israeli lobby in the US seeks to control both US policy and debate about US policy; accusations of anti-semitism are weaponised to shut down dissent over any of this.

Hard to dispute any of that, I would have thought.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I meant the Wikipedia article about AIPAC. It's a good introduction to the subject. I cited the book deliberately, because it offers a more in-depth analysis of the problem.

More realistic to think that someone might read a 12,000-word article (as I just did) than a 200,000-word book, though.

 

[Rimbaud]

So afaics the only reason the USA supports Israel is the lobby. What else could it be?

I think there are a lot of complex reasons for it. It would be wrong to say the lobby isn't a factor to some extent, but it is also wrong to say it is the main one, and even more wrong wrong to say it is the only one.

Firstly, Israel is considered to be a dependable ally in a volatile region. The US was an ally of Saddam Hussein's oil rich Iraq during their war with Iran, but then they invaded oil rich US ally Kuwait - it is hardly straightforward to say "just ally with the Arabs."

And if they weren't US allies, they would probably be Russian allies instead which would change the nature of the region in ways detrimental to the US.

Secondly, the role of the holocaust in western historical imagination has made criticism of Israel more complicated and difficult than it would otherwise be.

Thirdly, Israel has an important theological role in the imagination of evangelicals and therefore broader US political culture.

Related to this is a fourth reason - racism. The reality is far more complex and nuanced, but the American right wing basically view the conflict as white "Judeo-Christian" Israelis vs an other of brown Islamic Palestinians. It's a projection and reflection of US domestic racial politics. In fact it is no coincidence that American-Israelis are massively over-represented amongst extremist Israeli settlers (around 15% of settlers are American in origin compared to 2.2% of the Israeli population.)

So yes, the Israeli lobby is a thing, but they operate within a political culture which has other reasons for being pro-Israel, including ideological, cultural and geopolitical reasons.

 

[Silas Loom]

Some of the facts outlined in the article are indisputable: Israel does receive disproportionately massive aid; it is given this aid unquestioningly in a way that no other state is granted; a very well-run and effective Israeli lobby in the US seeks to control both US policy and debate about US policy; accusations of anti-semitism are weaponised to shut down dissent over any of this.

Hard to dispute any of that, I would have thought.

Facts, eh? Indisputable, eh?

1) “Disproportionate” in proportion to what? NATO and Europe? Korea and Taiwan? Ukraine? What’s the formula for counting the right amount of support - per capita, per geographic size, per threat?
2) “Unquestioningly” - so what is this lobby there to overcome?
3) All “US policy” or do you mean US policy concerning Israel and its neighbours?
4) That really does make you sound like someone who has been accused of antisemitism, or who is very keen on people who have been accused of antisemitism, and is huffy about it. Perhaps the cap fits. It certainly does on Dwyer.

 

[Rob Ray]

It's the difference between understanding a lobby exists and is doing its job, and the idea that it's in control. The former is very much true, the latter is not.

 

[editor]

Israel

MODERATOR MODE

You're banned off this thread and any other one where you peddle anti semitic bullshit.

*added mod title

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Indisputable, eh?

1) “Disproportionate” in proportion to what? NATO and Europe? Korea and Taiwan? Ukraine? What’s the formula for counting the right amount of support - per capita, per geographic size, per threat?
2) “Unquestioningly” - so what is this lobby there to overcome?
3) All “US policy” or do you mean US policy concerning Israel and its neighbours?
4) That really does make you sound like someone who has been accused of antisemitism, or who is very keen on people who have been accused of antisemitism, and is huffy about it.

1) compared to every other country in the world
2) Well, that could be down to the success of the lobby, couldn't it?
3) Crucial aspects of US policy in the region - happy to clarify
4) Nope. If you don't see that anti-semitism is weaponised in this way by the Israeli government and its allies and lobbyists, then you haven't been paying attention. I could give you quotes if you want.

5) Maybe read the article linked? You might learn something.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And there we go. That an effective Israeli lobby exists in the US is undisputed but anyone expressing ideas about its effectiveness that go beyond a certain level gets banned from the thread.

You don't have to agree with dwyer. But it seems we're not even allowed to hear him.

 

[ska invita]

The article argues otherwise. As dwyer says, it argues that the US's uncritical support for Israel is the source of most of its problems in the region. Given that it was written 18 years ago, the article is quite prescient. It describes the levels of control Israeli lobbyists exert over aspects of government and the media, but how it finds it harder to control what happens in universities. That's quite a decent description of what is happening right now in the US regarding debate over Palestine-Israel. It also describes how Israel frequently refuses to act like the obedient client state, again prescient given events of the last few months.

Some of the facts outlined in the article are indisputable: Israel does receive disproportionately massive aid; it is given this aid unquestioningly in a way that no other state is granted; a very well-run and effective Israeli lobby in the US seeks to control both US policy and debate about US policy; accusations of anti-semitism are weaponised to shut down dissent over any of this.

Hard to dispute any of that, I would have thought.

yes im sure...cant read in full as working hah...but I dispute that it is the tail wagging the dog. Israel is effectively client state and a good investment. its a bit more complicated than that, but thats what it boils down to. Its strategic location is paramount

 

[littlebabyjesus]

yes im sure...cant read in full as working hah...but I dispute that it is the tail wagging the dog. Israel is effectively client state and a good investment. its a bit more complicated than that, but thats what it boils down to. Its strategic location is paramount

The article is interesting. I would recommend reading it when you can. It argues that Israel is a bad investment for the US - and a bad client state.

 

[Spymaster]

You're banned off this thread and any other one where you peddle anti semitic bullshit.

Oh, ffs, did you actually read what he was posting or is this just a kneejerk reaction to some idiots reporting the post?

 

[ska invita]

The article is interesting. I would recommend reading it when you can. It argues that Israel is a bad investment for the US - and a bad client state.

i will...and no doubt it has an influence....but US foreign policy is always going to be viciously self-serving. I'm sure those murderous planners have worked out its a net gain for their particular objectives. Of course I wish it were a different conclusion.
Worth considering also that Israel was close to wider ...what's the word....recognition? accord with neighbouring countries (arguably why Hamas went for it when they did)
back to work

 

[krtek a houby]

Israel

Oh just fucking fuck off forever

 

[Spymaster]

Oh just fucking fuck off forever

Can't you do the same, you thick prat?

Everything's better on these boards when you're on a flounce.

 

[krtek a houby]

You're banned off this thread and any other one where you peddle anti semitic bullshit.

About time.

Perhaps give the boot to his tiny band of synthetic supporters as well?

 

[krtek a houby]

And there we go. That an effective Israeli lobby exists in the US is undisputed but anyone expressing ideas about its effectiveness that go beyond a certain level gets banned from the thread.

You don't have to agree with dwyer. But it seems we're not even allowed to hear him.

Who wants to listen to proven antisemites?

Urban needs a purge of these arseholes.

 

[Spymaster]

Perhaps give the boot to his tiny band of synthetic supporters as well?

Urban needs a purge of these arseholes.

Here we go again. Calling for others to be banned rather than taking a good hard look at yourself, you obsequious little arsehole.

You are not a moderator.

And no, we're not on mutual ignore. It was for a month, nearly two months ago.

 

[kabbes]

Who wants to listen to proven antisemites?

Urban needs a purge of these arseholes.

krtek, I very rarely disagree with your politics but by God are you disruptive and annoying with your constant calling of the banhammer for anybody you disagree with.

 

[krtek a houby]

krtek, I very rarely disagree with your politics but by God are you disruptive and annoying with your constant calling of the banhammer for anybody you disagree with.

Fair enough.

It's not a popularity contest.

Personally, I'd rather see the antisemitic contingent booted off the site, but if you think there's mileage to be had by conversation - go for it.

I've seen other sites go down, with the likes of the bigots. I don't wish to see the same here.

 

[Spymaster]

Personally, I'd rather see the antisemitic contingent booted off the site ...

What he posted was not antisemitic. As anyone who's actually read the Mearsheimer piece he referred to would realise. But you didn't, did you? Just straight in calling for bannings. As ever.

 

[Rob Ray]

I think there is/should be room to talk about the extent of the Israeli lobby in US politics, but starting from a position of They control it all is either pretty close to or dipped in anti-Semitism making it a poor start point. In this case it didn't even make sense in context – Trump went much further than Biden in supporting Israel while President, to the point of moving the embassy to Jerusalem. The Knesset loves Trump.

 

[Silas Loom]

What he posted was not antisemitic. As anyone who's actually read the Mearsheimer piece he referred to would realise. But you didn't, did you? Just straight in calling for bannings. As ever.

This is the second time since I’ve been back that you’ve got into a frothing rage about something that other people think is antisemitic and you think is absolutely fine. Why is this of such importance to you? Why do you believe yourself to be an authority on antisemitism?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think there is/should be room to talk about the extent of the Israeli lobby in US politics, but starting from a position of They control it all is either pretty close to or dipped in anti-Semitism making it a poor start point. In this case it didn't even make sense in context – Trump went much further than Biden in supporting Israel while President, to the point of moving the embassy to Jerusalem. The Knesset loves Trump.

I agree with this. I think dwyer is wrong about a lot of this stuff, including this point. But it can be discussed. It is possible to point this kind of thing out to him, and perhaps get a response or even - heaven forfend - a rethink.

 

[Spymaster]

This is the second time since I’ve been back that you’ve got into a frothing rage about something that other people think is antisemitic and you think is absolutely fine. Why is this of such importance to you? Why do you believe yourself to be an authority on antisemitism?

I can read.

The article he linked to is not wrong. The suggestion that US policy is wholly controlled by the Israel lobby is wide of the mark but it's a massive influence.

Have you read the piece?

 

[krtek a houby]

I think there is/should be room to talk about the extent of the Israeli lobby in US politics, but starting from a position of They control it all is either pretty close to or dipped in anti-Semitism making it a poor start point. In this case it didn't even make sense in context – Trump went much further than Biden in supporting Israel while President, to the point of moving the embassy to Jerusalem. The Knesset loves Trump.

Yes. Agreed.

Absolutely should be room for discussion.

Just not with proven antisemites.

Surely not a controversial issue, keeping them at bay?


(Not having a go at yourself)

 

[kabbes]

Fair enough.

It's not a popularity contest.

Personally, I'd rather see the antisemitic contingent booted off the site, but if you think there's mileage to be had by conversation - go for it.

I've seen other sites go down, with the likes of the bigots. I don't wish to see the same here.

Do you really still think that the best way to address politics that harms others is to make it go ‘over there’? Really? After all these years of the utter failure of that approach?

 

[krtek a houby]

Do you really still think that the best way to address politics that harms others is to make it go ‘over there’? Really? After all these years of the utter failure of that approach?

You're the brains. You tell me.

Do you think that the antisemitic contingent here really deserve a moment in the spotlight?

 

[kabbes]

You're the brains. You tell me.

Do you think that the antisemitic contingent here really deserve a moment in the spotlight?

What’s “deserve” got to do with it? They exist and they will be saying this stuff. I’d rather they did it here where people can point out the ways it is wrong than on some other corner of the internet where they’ll find a willing audience

 

[Silas Loom]

I can read.

The article he linked to is not wrong. The suggestion that US policy is wholly controlled by the Israel lobby is wide of the mark but it's a massive influence.

Have you read the piece?

The post that Phil was banned for just said “Israel”. No link. That’s the one you’re defending.