Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[Rob Ray]

Well the real problem is that the establishment of both parties agree on everything substantial, because they are sponsored by the same interests. Hence their horror when someone like Trump appears. It's not so much that they fear any of his policies, but they know he isn't under their control, and they can't handle that kind of threat.

Amazingly enough I actually (mostly) agree with the first part of that. The second part less so, especially "they" - they who? The US has innumerable factions which benefit more or less from Trump as premier. As far as I can see he's often quite easy to manipulate as long as you flatter him – foreign leaders notably did so throughout his last premiership. His biggest problem will be the same as Biden's - he's getting on a bit and clearly not in great health no matter what his pet doctors say.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well the real problem is that the establishment of both parties agree on everything substantial, because they are sponsored by the same interests. Hence their horror when someone like Trump appears. It's not so much that they fear any of his policies, but they know he isn't under their control, and they can't handle that kind of threat.

Trump enacted a bunch of very conventionally 'conservative' policies when he was in office. Stacked the courts, cut taxes for the rich, blew up all kinds of environmental legislation. Big powerful groups in the US were surely delighted by all of this.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ditto with Trump, who is becoming more incoherent by the day.

i'm not sure he is, you know. He's always spouted incoherent dribble. It's partly calculated not to make sense, of course, like Boris Johnson.

 

[phildwyer]

Amazingly enough I actually (mostly) agree with the first part of that. The second part less so, especially "they" - they who? The US has innumerable factions which benefit more or less from Trump as premier. As far as I can see he's often quite easy to manipulate as long as you flatter him – foreign leaders notably did so throughout his last premiership. His biggest problem will be the same as Biden's - he's getting on a bit and clearly not in great health no matter what his pet doctors say.

Trump isn't one of their selected instruments for the implementation of the post 9/11 neo-con foreign policy agenda: US ‘plans to attack seven Muslim states’

Now, could he be persuaded to follow that agenda? I reckon so, and I think Sheldon Adelson took the right approach to Trump (bribery, flattery), which succeeded in getting the embassy moved and Sulemani killed. But for some reason (probably panic and stupidity combined with a visceral dislike of macho white guys), 95% of the US establishment has not bothered trying to persuade him, but instead to brush him aside like an inconvenient insect. Hasn't worked. And now they may have buggered up the other option--Trump won't be hiring Bolton or Pompeo next time around.

 

[phildwyer]

"they" - they who?

Israel

 

[Rob Ray]

Trump isn't one of their selected instruments for the implementation of the post 9/11 neo-con foreign policy agenda: US ‘plans to attack seven Muslim states’

Now, could he be persuaded to follow that agenda? I reckon so, and I think Sheldon Adelson took the right approach to Trump (bribery, flattery), which succeeded in getting the embassy moved and Sulemani killed. But for some reason (probably panic and stupidity combined with a visceral dislike of macho white guys), 95% of the US establishment has not bothered trying to persuade him, but instead to brush him aside like an inconvenient insect. Hasn't worked. And now they may have buggered up the other option--Trump won't be hiring Bolton or Pompeo next time around.

The neo-con wing of the Republicans was fucked well before Trump came along, in fact arguably his ascent and the failure of Jeb Bush can be linked directly as fallout from the faction's inextricable connection to the twin disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan. The remaining rump has been extraordinarily ineffective and is basically irrelevant having lost control of the main levers of the GOP. If they're the They I think you're focusing on the wrong people.

 

[Rob Ray]

Israel

Jfc please tell me you don't think Israel is the shadowy power behind US politics.

 

[phildwyer]

Jfc please tell me you don't think Israel is the shadowy power behind US politics.

Of course not. There's nothing shadowy about it: AIPAC - Wikipedia

 

[Silas Loom]

Jfc please tell me you don't think Israel is the shadowy power behind US politics.

He’s just told you that he does, and he’s said it in the past.

 

[Rob Ray]

Of course not. There's nothing shadowy about it: AIPAC - Wikipedia

Ugh, every time I think you're on the verge of not being an abject loon about things ...

 

[phildwyer]

The neo-con wing of the Republicans was fucked well before Trump came along, in fact arguably his ascent and the failure of Jeb Bush can be linked directly as fallout from the faction's inextricable connection to the twin disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan. The remaining rump has been extraordinarily ineffective and is basically irrelevant having lost control of the main levers of the GOP. If they're the They I think you're focusing on the wrong people.

The neo-cons are still very powerful in both parties. They (specifically Nuland and Kagan) are the architects of the wars in Ukraine and Syria, and their main problem with Trump is his lack of enthusiasm for either of these.

 

[phildwyer]

Ugh, every time I think you're on the verge of not being an abject loon about things ...

I don't think you know what you're talking about with regard to this one. Read the article. Better still, read this: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

 

[chandlerp]

I think people find her personally repellent, to a degree that exceeds even the pitiable standards of American politicians. No doubt racism and sexism play their role, but she really IS personally repellent, so it's hard to argue.

I wish you hadn't come back, you're a fucking repugnant, repellent bellend.

 

[ska invita]

That there's an Israel Lobby is not in question.... That it explains the nature of all US foreign policy is beyond delusional

 

[phildwyer]

That there's an Israel Lobby is not in question.... That it explains the nature of all US foreign policy is beyond delusional

But it does explain the wars against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia, as well as the coming wars against Lebanon and Iran. Just as Wesley Clarke, John Mearsheimer and numerous others have said.

Everyone knows this to be true. Until recently, most people have refrained from saying it (in public, they say it in private alright), because they know that people will pretend to think they are anti-semitic. But I reckon the days when that con worked are behind us.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think you know what you're talking about with regard to this one. Read the article. Better still, read this: The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

For the benefit of other readers, that doesn't link to the article. The article link is this:

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt · The Israel Lobby: the Israel Lobby

 

[phildwyer]

For the benefit of other readers, that doesn't link to the article. The article link is this:

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt · The Israel Lobby: the Israel Lobby

I meant the Wikipedia article about AIPAC. It's a good introduction to the subject. I cited the book deliberately, because it offers a more in-depth analysis of the problem.

 

[andysays]

Israel

I think it was this sort of post which got you banned last time, rather than being overly critical of Biden.

 

[Rimbaud]

But it does explain the wars against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia, as well as the coming wars against Lebanon and Iran. Just as Wesley Clarke, John Mearsheimer and numerous others have said.

Go in then - how did the Israel lobby cause wars against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia?

I'm not even sure what war against Sudan you even mean - the US bombed a pharmaceutical factory there that it believed was linked to Al-Qaeda back in 1998, nearly 30 years ago. I'm not sure if they've done anything militarily in Sudan since then.

 

[ska invita]

But it does explain the wars against Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Yemen and Somalia, as well as the coming wars against Lebanon and Iran. Just as Wesley Clarke, John Mearsheimer and numerous others have said.

Do you think if there was no Israel Lobby those wars wouldnt have happened?

 

[Ax^]

I haven't met a single American who considers Kamala anything but an over-promoted, repellent horror. We're not stupid, after all. I reckon the only plausible replacement is the dreaded 3G: Governor Gavin Gruesome.

interesting way of saying Americans just could not handle a black women as president of the united states

 

[Rob Ray]

Tbf there was enough trouble with just the racism when Obama won, and more with the misogyny when Clinton tried and failed. Put them together and you're talking a pretty big electoral segment (of fuckwits).

 

[chandlerp]

Imagine if they teamed up a gay man (Buttigieg ) and Harris. They would melt down.

 

[ska invita]

For the benefit of other readers, that doesn't link to the article. The article link is this:

John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt · The Israel Lobby: the Israel Lobby

Even from within that it says "Clearly, it would be wrong to blame the war in Iraq on ‘Jewish influence’. Rather, it was due in large part to the Lobby’s influence, especially that of the neo-conservatives within it. " and yet "The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president."

Israel is like the 52nd US state...it provides a foothold for the US military in the middle east. That is its purpose for US foreing policy. To quote Biden "if it didnt exist we would have to invent it". Israeli governments have their agenda, and lobby for it, but they do not lead. It just so happens it neatly overlaps with US foreign policy objectives in the vast majority of cases. "Securing Israel" is in effect securing a US military outpost.

 

[phildwyer]

Do you think if there was no Israel Lobby those wars wouldnt have happened?

Yes. If the USA followed its self-interest it would ally with the Arabs, who have the oil, which is what the USA needs. The USA has paid a very heavy price for its alliance with Israel, attracting widespread opprobrium for very little recompence.

I agree that there's a moral case for supporting Israel, but international politics isn't conducted on the basis of morality.

So afaics the only reason the USA supports Israel is the lobby. What else could it be?

 

[Silas Loom]

Those notoriously monolithic Arabs . . .

 

[Jeff Robinson]

People who want Biden to win (or want Trump to lose) know that Biden did terribly.

People who want Trump to win think he did awesome, even though he was as abysmal as ever.

Trumpists look at liberal reaction and say "hA eveen his onw Supperters no he did bad!" But the only reason Trumpists don't think the same about their candidate is because they're vile and/or stupid.

 

[phildwyer]

Israel is like the 52nd US state...it provides a foothold for the US military in the middle east. That is its purpose for US foreing policy. To quote Biden "if it didnt exist we would have to invent it". Israeli governments have their agenda, and lobby for it, but they do not lead. It just so happens it neatly overlaps with US foreign policy objectives in the vast majority of cases. "Securing Israel" is in effect securing a US military outpost.

I hadn't seen this when I wrote my last post.

My point is that the US wouldn't need a military outpost in the middle east if it wasn't for its alliance with Israel. The Arabs and Iranians hate us because of our support for Israel.

 

[phildwyer]

Israel is like the 52nd US state...

And the UK is the 51st?

 

[Rob Ray]

If the USA followed its self-interest it would ally with the Arabs, who have the oil

It is allied with Arab states who have oil, Saudi Arabia most notably but also UAE. It isn't, however, allied with Venezuela, which has the single largest proven reserve worldwide and zero interest from the Israelis. Oil very much isn't the defining factor of self-interested US foreign policy any more (if it ever was), especially since the exploitation of oil shale and tight oil effectively regained it self-sufficiency. The US is currently a net exporter.