Fedayn
Well-Known Member
And your evidence or argument that it is merely 'very old-fashioned' is what exactly? Simplistic knee-jerk mumbling, such as above, isn't much of an argument old bean.
Does class still matter?
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
And your evidence or argument that it is merely 'very old-fashioned' is what exactly? Simplistic knee-jerk mumbling, such as above, isn't much of an argument old bean.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
No, I put it here because I don't think it "Historical" or purely "theoretical", so didn't want it to go in the Egghead Forum.
Idaho
blah blah blah
I refuse to discuss class and won't let my servants or groundstaff discuss it either.
Actually all the aristocratic nonsense is a bit of red herring too I think. More significant now is that a group of capitalists made a big mess of the world economy whilst making each other splendidly rich, and afterward the burden of paying for the cock-up falls heaviest on those with the least money.
Actually all the aristocratic nonsense is a bit of red herring too I think. More significant now is that a group of capitalists made a big mess of the world economy whilst making each other splendidly rich, and afterward the burden of paying for the cock-up falls heaviest on those with the least money.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't think for one second Germany is 'more egalitarian' - just that the superstructure element of accent that someone had mentioned previously was less important there (which it is imho - it reflects to a greater extent formal 'education' rather than underlying class - and adds to the ossie/wessie resentment
)That reinforces your previous post - that the superficial covering - I called it a smokescreen earlier - hides the underlying root causes driving the show - which we probably both agree is economic relations
dennisr
the acceptable face
Yep, thats a fair enough point but I think the aristocratic nonsense - in the sense of where the wealth and power originally came from (ie by brute force) can begin to make sense of why they are making those cock-ups now - how the system develops and works. They are victims too as fellow humans - they just don't pay the price
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
How did you vote, Tom?
bhamgeezer
Dogs bark
Class exists, its just not the same as the old fashioned idea of class. Class in the past implied some sort of breeding. I know many of individuals who have come from poor working class backgrounds and through education and intelligence have become to more classy than those born into wealth who assume class is inherant to them.
These days class is more of a face value judgement baised on your wealth, mannerisms, appearance, accent, intelligence, social status and ignorance.
These days class is more of a face value judgement baised on your wealth, mannerisms, appearance, accent, intelligence, social status and ignorance.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
In this poll. ^
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I think you're wrong.
And you talk about the wealth divide. What do you think class means?
England must be the only country in Europe where the working class as a whole are more right wing than the middle class! Complete oxymoron....
Class will probably always matter in terms of privilege , career choices etc but i personally have more respect for someone middle class who cares and has a bit intelligence than i do for some working class tabloid parrot driven by hatred and perpetuating division, who knows their place and buys shit like the Sun and watches reality TV because thats what they're expected to do
Bet thats surprised ya
Class will probably always matter in terms of privilege , career choices etc but i personally have more respect for someone middle class who cares and has a bit intelligence than i do for some working class tabloid parrot driven by hatred and perpetuating division, who knows their place and buys shit like the Sun and watches reality TV because thats what they're expected to do
Bet thats surprised ya
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
No its not!!!(well, okay it can be, but in that sense its next to useless...)
Much more important is the old relationship to means of production, access to/ownership of capital and the resulting powers that come from this.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
No.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Its a bulletin board. That was a quick one sentence reply. Of course it was simplistic
What would you like fella - a dissatation? i don't have the facts to hand - but it is clear that billions of ordinary Americans are presently paying the price for a few very rich and very greedy ones. I am happy to take a gamble that the majority of those at the top where always close to the top and those at the bottom close to the bottom.
or I could ask you to prove it hasn't - I am sure the US government spend quite a lot trying to prove that all the time
If we are defining class in relation to Marxist theory i.e. the relation of the individual to the means of production and access to capital then yes I would say this is important in every country.
However I would say the wealth divide in the US is by no means decided in the same way that in the UK there certainly seems to be that case. Primarily because land is so cheap in the US.
However I've always seen in the UK at any rate class to mean more then just that, more then just economics. There have been plenty of poor Nobles who still get access to the house of Lords based upon a title, yet they are basically skint. The whole family name and such shit. Yet they wield power simply because their ancestor stole land from Anglo-Saxon ceorls and such.
I belive in the UK this is certainly is an important factor of what makes up our class system and to base it purely on economics kinda misses a piece of the puzzle.
The above exists to a certain degree in the US, but I don't think people care that much here as there isn't this built in cap doffing to the gentry culture.
I was hoping maybe some links or something to read
. Yes millions of ordinary Americans are paying for the fuckups of a handful. However I wouldn't necessarily say that all of those at the top have always been there but that is kinda immaterial now as they have all jumped ship and left us to carry the can.
bhamgeezer
Dogs bark
class is pretty rare down these ends anyway 
and I don't mean that in a snotty sense, it would just be nice to have more style less check out how much cash I got!
and I don't mean that in a snotty sense, it would just be nice to have more style less check out how much cash I got!
dennisr
the acceptable face
Thats some interesting points and I can fully accept the advantage of cheap (and plenty of it per person...) land making a difference.
But I still think that non-economic view of class we have as a given here - and the people in the US has as a given there etc etc is at root the result of the ongoing friction between actual existing economic classes. The in that sense at least more egalitarian nature of the US reflects the differing relations between actual economic classes there - and the struggles between them. The idea of class given to us by media, education etc etc is one that has been 'negotiated' in a very different way to that in the US - a nation state founded in an anti-colonial revolution against the colonial land owners.
Take Australia - even the worst capitalist has to pretend he just a 'mate' and down to earth - does not make Murdoch any less a grasping boss but the specific history of Australia (one that can easily be seen as a struggle between opposing classes at many points) dictated terms in which class is both officially and unofficially discussed etc.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I find it very hard to say, and I'm not sure the two situations can be compared given that the way accents have developed is historically different. As a non US native I have a lot of trouble judging the accents and more importantly what they mean, just like any foreigner without extensive experience. I can hear that accents are different, and the more you hear the more you notice the smaller differences, but I don't viscerally know what that means. A lot of the time, prejudice based on accent and dialect is either invisible or seems bizarre. Somebody who's lived there longer than a couple of years could no doubt tell you more.
I did however start to notice certain regularities, often with the help of Americans who'd grown up with it, and given that US society definitely does have a lot of social prejudice and hierarchy I'd say it was at least significant.
dennisr
the acceptable face
I was hoping maybe some links or something to read
Yes millions of ordinary Americans are paying for the fuckups of a handful. However I wouldn't necessarily say that all of those at the top have always been there but that is kinda immaterial now as they have all jumped ship and left us to carry the can.
I would if I had the time - would be interesting for me to.
American history (both north and south) is incredible - If I had been born in another time it would be the early US as it opened up (or closed down I suppose if you look at it from some NA point of views) amazing place - still is whatever I may think of its government, economic polices or recent president
Fridgemagnet> Living in a Mass you can tell the difference between the harsh Boston accent and the softer New England tones. Often the harsh Boston accent is for example associated with "Southie" in Boston which is where the Irish immigrants mainly settled and is considered a working class accent. However of course you'll regularly meet people with that kind of accent in Boston who are loaded.
So it's kinda hard to tell in some cases IMO.
So it's kinda hard to tell in some cases IMO
.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Fridgemagnet> Living in a Mass you can tell the difference between the harsh Boston accent and the softer New England tones. Often the harsh Boston accent is for example associated with "Southie" in Boston which is where the Irish immigrants mainly settled and is considered a working class accent. However of course you'll regularly meet people with that kind of accent in Boston who are loaded.
So it's kinda hard to tell in some cases IMO
Yeah, but it can be hard to tell here as well. That's the sort of division I'm talking about though, which would be hard to get if you were American and from a different state or even city, let alone if you're some foreigner.
Class doesn't matter.
in the same way. Systemic inequality. Break down of social mobility and having the same old faces in positions of influence and power, don't matter.
And that's where it counts. The fripperies of where someone might eat, holiday or what they choose for entertainment are merely cultural predolictions that arise from the former. Sometimes consciously adopted or eschewed for their percieved connertations relating to what class is really about. Where you are in the heap.
in the same way. Systemic inequality. Break down of social mobility and having the same old faces in positions of influence and power, don't matter.
And that's where it counts. The fripperies of where someone might eat, holiday or what they choose for entertainment are merely cultural predolictions that arise from the former. Sometimes consciously adopted or eschewed for their percieved connertations relating to what class is really about. Where you are in the heap.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Really?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
That is probably the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard about Northern Ireland. James Connelly would turn in his grave.
