Does class still matter?

[ViolentPanda]

'Adapting', I think, would be a better verb.

Good point.
I was going to say "hybridising", but thought it sounded a bit too "sociology 'A' level" .

 

[danny la rouge]

Well perhaps given what BA has posted, those who have said it doesn't matter could explain, with some evidence perhaps, why it doesn't matter?!

I think it's enough that they've identified themselves as the enemy.

 

[Dandred]

I'm yet to see any admirals or generals in the forces who speak without a plumb up their arses.

 

[bluestreak]

Class pride eh? Now that's a funny question. I was brought up in a house with parents who wouldn't have even understood the question "what class are you", indeed, when i asked my mum what class we were (bearing in mind that at the time we lived on benefits and the occasional maintenance check from my train driving father) she shrugged and said "middle class i suppose". where the fuck did she get that from? we wore hand-me-downs, had a carpet that was worn through, ate the cheapest food mr sainsbury had to offer, and had rotting mattresses in the garden. we were lower than the sodding working classes! working class people thought we lowered the tone of the street (mind you, the working classes of gants hill in the 80s were the aspirant working classes, builders and cabbies and suchlike who'd done very well out of thatcher and considered themselves middle class).

what i mean is, in the end, it seems to me that only politicised people consider themselves working class - even when they're not! everyone else seems to have brought into the lie that we're all middle class now.

i must remind my mum of that anecdote, she's been politicised since that point (probably hard not to be with me ranting on all the time) and i'd like to see what she thinks of it now.

 

[Fedayn]

Being proud of being working class is one of the stupidest ideas imaginable. We, as a class, are defined by by being exploited, by being dispossesed and having no control over what we do for a living. What kind of dimwit takes pride in that? What is there to be proud about in being working class?

I have a 'class pride, I am proud of the heritage I have as a working-class socialist. Stupid? Oh well.....

 

[glenquagmire]

If I was Ma Bluestreak I'd give you a clip round the ear and tell you not to be so cheeky.

There was some tedious programme on a while ago with Prescott going on about class. This bunch of inner city council estate teenage girls seemed confused by the question 'what class are you?' One said she was middle-class and couldn't be working class "because I haven't got a job".

 

[Fuchs66]

They're nowhere near being synonymous, though, especially as the caste system is almost entirely static, it leaves very little room for what, in a class system, might be labelled "social mobility".

I may have misunderstood, but you seem to be judging class entirely by an individuals wealth, as I understand it the "class system", which I see as being more of a hereditory system, is more like the caste system of India as it now exists.

I work with a few Indians and this topic has cropped up a few times, from what they have told me (and I will gladly be corrected) the "traditional" caste system was a mobile system and a persons "caste" reflected his position in society according to his role in society, it was not entirely hereditory (although sons tended to follow their fathers profession) and people could move upwards. This all changed under British rule when the caste system was frozen making a rough copy of the British class system which of course those in charge, belonging as they did to higher castes have since maintained. (although the caste system is now illegal in India honest )

ps I've seen more than 1 high caste Indian fall flat on his face when trying to behave in Europe as he would in India

 

[rioted]

we wore hand-me-downs, had a carpet that was worn through, ate the cheapest food mr sainsbury had to offer, and had rotting mattresses in the garden.

That description could be applied to some of the aristocracy!

 

[danny la rouge]

I may have misunderstood, but you seem to be judging class entirely by an individuals wealth, as I understand it the "class system", which I see as being more of a hereditory system, is more like the caste system of India as it now exists.

This perception causes some Americans to say 'there's no class system in America'. But there is. Culturally and economically. Try getting into a New England club, and fitting in, if you're 'trailer trash'. There very much are cultural/social mores. But the salient point is wealth and power.

 

[teuchter]

I disagree. I'd say it's more of an obvious (and therefore more remarked upon) phenomenon in the UK, but is just as prevalent (although sometimes partially hidden within other forms of social categorisation and relations) anywhere that capitalism holds sway.

I'd say it's probably just that in the UK economic "class" is more closely tied up with cultural "class" than it is in other countries.

 

[teuchter]

An interesting thing about Britain is that someone's accent can give away a lot about their class (and other things). I get the impression that in, say, the US, this is not so much the case (although this may just be that I am not so sensitive to US accent variations so don't pick up what others might).

I mean, just by speaking to an American you might get an idea of how articulate and maybe educated they are, but talking to a Brit, you can often tell what class they grew up in. As in, a well educated, articulate working class background Brit will sound very different to a well educated articulate upper class background Brit. I'm not sure to what extent you could say the same for the states, or other European countries.

 

[bluestreak]

If I was Ma Bluestreak I'd give you a clip round the ear and tell you not to be so cheeky.

There was some tedious programme on a while ago with Prescott going on about class. This bunch of inner city council estate teenage girls seemed confused by the question 'what class are you?' One said she was middle-class and couldn't be working class "because I haven't got a job".

This is how people think. Class consciousness is learned, not automatic.

 

[dennisr]

I'd say it's probably just that in the UK economic "class" is more closely tied up with cultural "class" than it is in other countries.

Maybe simply more cleverly disguised by the smokescreen of a certain economic classes definition of cultural class charicteristics.

The caste system in India is a similar smokescreen - a legitimisation of presently existing economic class relations through the eyes of a feudal style idea of inevitability and natural order.

Both are lies.

I'm not andy cap or fat slag or a 'chav' although I may have a bit of all of them in my cultural being. I am working class though.

(I suppose my spelling is classic working class though... )

 

[FridgeMagnet]

An interesting thing about Britain is that someone's accent can give away a lot about their class (and other things). I get the impression that in, say, the US, this is not so much the case (although this may just be that I am not so sensitive to US accent variations so don't pick up what others might).

I mean, just by speaking to an American you might get an idea of how articulate and maybe educated they are, but talking to a Brit, you can often tell what class they grew up in. As in, a well educated, articulate working class background Brit will sound very different to a well educated articulate upper class background Brit. I'm not sure to what extent you could say the same for the states, or other European countries.

No, accent definitely has a social meaning in the US, just like it does here.

 

[teuchter]

This is how people think. Class consciousness is learned, not automatic.

Do you think "class consciousness" should be part of the national curriculum?

(Serious question)

 

[teuchter]

No, accent definitely has a social meaning in the US, just like it does here.

But to the same extent?

 

[bluestreak]

Of course, but it won't ever be, because our current society requires the bare minimum of class consciousness in order to function.

 

[dennisr]

No, accent definitely has a social meaning in the US, just like it does here.

When living in germany, I realised the full extent of accent + class in the uk. Its less of a problem there - maybe something to do with the greater regional identity that comes from a later unification of the german state? (just a guess like)

 

[electrogirl]

This is how people think. Class consciousness is learned, not automatic.

Definitely. I think people should be forced to think about class more. It was only when I studied Sociology that I started to think about some of the things I took for granted, and how much of an influence my class background was.

My mum and dad are still totally ignorant about it.

 

[teuchter]

Maybe simply more cleverly disguised by the smokescreen of a certain economic classes definition of cultural class charicteristics.

The caste system in India is a similar smokescreen - a legitimisation of presently existing economic class relations through the eyes of a feudal style idea of inevitability and natural order.

Both are lies.

I'm not andy cap or fat slag or a 'chav' although I may have a bit of all of them in my cultural being. I am working class though.

(I suppose my spelling is classic working class though... )

Why do you use the term "smokescreen"? Do you mean that members of one class will deliberately adopt the cultural habits of another in an attempt to pretend that they are not the (economic) class they are? And that they will do this more in the UK than other countries?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd say it's probably just that in the UK economic "class" is more closely tied up with cultural "class" than it is in other countries.

There is, though, occlusion and confusion in the UK, much of it deliberate, to muddy the picture. That way people think it's only about accent, or whether or not they eat avocados. So of course they'll say that doesn't matter. If it were only that, I'd agree with them - why would it matter? But that isn't what its about. It's about where wealth and power is concentrated. (The cultural capital behind that is where the cultural side of the picture gets interesting).

 

[danny la rouge]

No, accent definitely has a social meaning in the US, just like it does here.

Yup. That's the kind of thing my New England cub/ trailer trash example was aimed at.

The perfect illustration of cultural class in action in the US is the film Philadelphia Story and its musical remake, High Society. If there was no notion of cultural class in the US, that story wouldn't make sense.

 

[Fuchs66]

This perception causes some Americans to say 'there's no class system in America'. But there is. Culturally and economically. Try getting into a New England club, and fitting in, if you're 'trailer trash'. There very much are cultural/social mores. But the salient point is wealth and power.

Of course there is a class system, of sorts, in the US, but this is also largely hereditory see how many of the ruling classes are related. Its another of those chicken and egg things, what comes first the class or the power/wealth? There are exceptions that prove the rule of course.

However try getting into a New England club as "trailer trash" who's just won the lottery, chances are you wont, it's not just wealth.

 

[DotCommunist]

most stuff I've read about the US class system emphasises how heavily race dominates the structure, with blacks and hispanics at the bottom end of the heap

 

[danny la rouge]

However try getting into a New England club as "trailer trash" who's just won the lottery, chances are you wont, it's not just wealth.

Culture is part of the picture. Of course it is. There was the recent story about the hilarious faux pas the mother of the girlfriend of one of the Princes caused recently. (Was it Kate Middleton's mother?) I can't remember exactly what she got 'wrong', but she showed herself up by saying lavatory instead of toilet, or something. And something about tomatoes.

But the point is, if the club had no power, then nobody would care about getting the passwords right.

 

[dennisr]

Why do you use the term "smokescreen"? Do you mean that members of one class will deliberately adopt the cultural habits of another in an attempt to pretend that they are not the (economic) class they are? And that they will do this more in the UK than other countries?

Yep, I can see how you could read my shorthand as leaning towards some sort of conspiratorial theory. But nope I don't think it is conciously planned - it simply provides a convenient smokescreen in practice.

You can see the simple list of hard facts BA listed - that just a small number of the thousand and one pointers to the underlying reality behind all the illusory rubbish people swallow and spout. I think we all kid ourselves to an extent - including me -we all play a part in the creation of all sorts of barriers to a clear view of underlying realities. But when the illusions don't click with those underlying realities folk from an economically poorer background are probably more likely to question them.

 

[dennisr]

However try getting into a New England club as "trailer trash" who's just won the lottery, chances are you wont, it's not just wealth.

Yep, And the simple point of the actual 'chance' in their lives of those folk actually winning the lottery makes it very unlikely to even be tested in any case.

I suppose America did have - to a much greater extent the 'rags to riches' reality - part of being a late developing (economically...) 'frontier land' (as opposed to endlessly repeated stories about everyman richard branson and a couple of other folk we have in the UK media...). But that US wealth divide is now settled.

The myth it gives is probably what we like so much in 'cowboy' films - the rough, self-made individualist - forgetting how these people were fenced out and wiped out by economic development. You 'self-employed' types should be able to read something into that about your own lives and ask yourself who's side you should be on

 

[Fuchs66]

Thing is class has various guises the world over and as this thread is under UK politics I presume that the "British class system" is the main topic. The British class system is IMO largely social based and hereditory, of course wealth and power play a role but they arent the driving force merely a weapon used by the upper classes.

Someone mentioned the system in Germany as being more egalitarian than that in the UK, they obviously have had no contact with the German aristocracy who still play a large (if somewhat hidden) role there and social standing and accent does factor into their idea of class. See how far someone speaking perfect "Hochdeutsch" gets compared with someone who speaks with a heavy Saechsisch accent.

 

[Kenny Vermouth]

We're told it's "old fashioned" to think it does. But does it?

Yes it's very old-fashioned.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes it's very old-fashioned.

Why? And what's your come-back on this?