Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[frogwoman]

SheilaNaGig I totally take your point about how a huge number of people, and probably the majority who are into stuff like reiki and yoga etc aren't into the darker elements of conspiracy theorizing, antisemitism etc. I also think there's a real risk of thinking that 'we' could end up oblivious to the dangers of being susceptible to that stuff at all that it's only something that 'hippies' or 'yoga mums' etc. It can be a soft target because that kind of thing often end up derided on the left and websites like this anyway.

I think that's partly what happened on the left in the last few years, people have been shocked that it's become such a big issue at all because 'they've spent 30 years on the left' and 'nobody' they know could do that, they don't want to believe that their mates or a significant element of an organisation or cause they've devoted their lives to could have some horrendous ideas so that is how they rationalise it.

Thing is though, Icke got platforms in events like Bestival to spread his poison unchallenged. Here is speaking to a huge crowd in 2012. Nobody is saying this is the only entry point, but it is a pretty fucking big one. Is that the fault of hippies and stoners, no, but i do hold the organisers responsible for making a headline act.



And celebrities and journalists gave him chummy/friendly/humourous interviews to spread it to a wider audience (quite possibly because he started out in that world.) Because it wasn't seen as associated with fascism.

David Icke Warns AI Threat More Dangerous To Humans Than ‘Reptilian Race’

<p>He called Mark Zuckerberg ‘a t-shirt-wearing manchild’.</p>

www.unilad.co.uk

As this white-haired 65-year-old gazes out to sea recalling his steam train loving youth and a life of yesteryear, it’s hard to believe he’s embroiled in the unpicking of the modern world’s greatest conspiracy.

Meet David Icke. You might have heard his theories; maybe dipped into one of his 20 books, which claim the human race lives in a holographic false reality, controlled by shapeshifting 12-foot paedophilic lizards whose HQ is in our hollowed-out moon.
You probably have a preconception about what sort of man an apprehensive UNILAD crew was faced with on a cold January day in his hometown on the Isle of Wight. You probably think he’s nothing like you.
This is how David Icke changed our minds:

Preconceptions – predicated by the very nature of judging an author by his book cover – are sometimes wrong.

Icke tells UNILAD how he reconciles his controversial work with his everyday life:

I move seamlessly between conspiracy and reality concepts, but I’m also living in the world as it is. I like a cup of tea, a glass of wine, I watch a bit of football.
I’m not a special person, I’m just doing what I do because I feel it’s right. You could offer me £50 million to still work at the BBC, and you could say, ‘Do whatever you like; none of this would’ve happened, none of the ridicule or abuse’.
I’d say, ‘No thanks’ because I wouldn’t change anything about my life.

UNILAD
A firm believer in the power of people and our control over our own perception, David left us with this one thought: ‘Life is not one thing – it’s whatever you want it to be’.
Lizards, conspiracy and controversy aside, it’s a message which can motivate us all.

At the time his views had been commented on for a number of years so I'm afraid that I do hold the authors of stuff like this responsible to a large extent, basically by giving him a sympathetic hearing and treating him as their mate and as if what he was saying was at worst a big joke rather than challenging it to any degree.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

And so you should.

I fully understand and support what you’re saying.

Please know that I’m not defending hippies here.


(As an aside.. I’m pretty tired of being misread and misunderstood on here. Not by you but others are falling into that laziness you outlined in the first paragraph of your post and making assumptions about what I may think based on their prejudices about what they think I represent. Hence my tedious caveats and qualifiers at the end of some of my posts.)


By saying “not all hippies” I’m not defending hippies or excusing them, but to make the narrow assumption that one group of people think or behave in a certain manner is itself inherently problematic. You put if far more eloquently than I do.

 

[frogwoman]

To be honest I don't care if you are defending hippies or not lol. I don't care if someone is a hippy lol. You've made some really good points on this thread.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

( I was at a party with my vile ex a few years ago. He came over to me and said “there’s a bloke over here that I know you’ll really get on with, you have a lot in common”. So a bit later he introduced us and within about 90 seconds it was totally obvious that we had absolutely nothing in common at all and the attempt at conversation ground to a halt. Later I asked Matey why he thought we had stuff in common and he said “Well, he believes the same things that you do”. Setting aside the stupidity of not actually knowing what his gf believes or thinks, this was a good example of someone making crass assumptions about what motivates and concerns other people, based on their own prejudices.)

 

[SheilaNaGig]

To be honest I don't care if you are defending hippies or not lol. I don't care if someone is a hippy lol. You've made some really good points on this thread.

It’s not you.

Just that I was taken aback when a couple of people on here made bald assumptions about me that are totally untrue. So I’m going overboard with the self defence now.

 

[hitmouse]

Fwiw, the ACFM lot did a pretty good pair of podcasts on this subject earlier this summer:
#ACFM Microdose: Erik Davis on the Cosmic Right
#ACFM Trip 12: The Cosmic Right

 

[8ball]

It’s not you.

Just that I was taken aback when a couple of people on here made bald assumptions about me that are totally untrue. So I’m going overboard with the self defence now.

I was kidding about the Reiki - I could see it wasn't you who brought it up.

 

[lazythursday]

Again not doubting your own observations are true from your perspective.

But I can tell you categorically that those of my friends who would be considered pretty definitely “hippy” by Urban are not Covid deniers.

I'm talking about a general trend rather than absolutely everyone - eg actually the only person I know into reiki is totally on board with covid being dangerous - but this has been generally observed by others, in the US too, that 'wellness' and new age types have often gone down the covid-denying road. More eco-incined 'hippies' (for want of a better term) have not, perhaps because they can see where this is all leading > climate change denial. It's probably been particularly visible here because there are a few local new agey characters who have demonstrated and proselytised and garnered plenty of disciples (from how it looks on social media, anyway).

 

[frogwoman]

I don't really care that much if someone is into reiki, I think even something that is largely a placebo effect (not saying it is, I dont know anything about it) can sometimes help with stuff like chronic pain and symptoms that the person may have had taken less seriously, it can help alleviate stress too.

I do care when homeopathy and bleach and that sort of thing gets flogged as a remedy for a serious disease like cancer or if someone is a, racist, homophobe, antisemite, covid denier etc tho. That sort of thing kills and causes real harm to people whereas I'm not really bothered by someone finding help for their symptoms outside of traditional medicine.

 

[Cloo]

On the gammon opposition front, the whole scenario has resulted in this bizarre thing where you have people who actually approve of the UK government, telling people who fucking hate the UK government that they're only sticking to lockdown and wearing masks because they love authority

 

[LDC]

It's partly that as capital and those that promote and defend it has got stronger and controlled the narrative of what's 'normal', and (parts of) the left has become more about personal freedom and counter-cultural expression, then we've become more of a place where any anti-establishment or fringe belief, no matter how bonkers, has found a place to take root and grow. And the environmental stuff has also really brought a load in with it as well, sneaking in alongside the 'big pharma' and 'health food' type stuff. One of the reasons why conspiracy stuff was so big in the anti-fracking camps.

Not completely new, but it has gone into overdrive in the last 10-20 years with a few other things helping (internet, 9/11, weed smoking, Iraq War...) along the way.

This stuff was also around in the early days of HIV and AIDS if anyone recalls? There were some places on the left (bookshops and bookfairs and gatherings) that would see pamphlets sold, or have workshops given, that disputed the fact that HIV caused AIDS, or that it was laboratory created as a bio-weapon. And afaik those 'theories' have been proved to have come from a USSR disinfo campaign.

E2A, a quick investi-Google gave this Operation INFEKTION - Wikipedia

 

[Cloo]

Sadly have seen people get into antisemitism from the 'Woo' side, including a formerly dear family friend who is not mentally well

 

[8ball]

Sadly have seen people get into antisemitism from the 'Woo' side, including a formerly dear family friend who is not mentally well

I think entry via the woo route has been a thing for a while now.

 

[bimble]

It’s all going to get so much harder if the chatter about the UK getting a new tv channel along the lines of Fox News in America is right. No question there’s a market for it.
This is so deeply irresponsible it kind of blows my mind though.

 

[hitmouse]

This stuff was also around in the early days of HIV and AIDS if anyone recalls? There were some places on the left (bookshops and bookfairs and gatherings) that would see pamphlets sold, or have workshops given, that disputed the fact that HIV caused AIDS, or that it was laboratory created as a bio-weapon. And afaik those 'theories' have been proved to have come from a USSR disinfo campaign.

E2A, a quick investi-Google gave this Operation INFEKTION - Wikipedia

That shows you how tricky this stuff, if someone told me that the AIDS conspiracy theories were started off by the KGB, I'd start moving closer to writing them off as a weirdo conspiracy theorist.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Actually wanting to see a bit of good old fashioned police brutality is an odd feeling

Whatever you think of these loons, there’s no place for police violence against peaceful protestors.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Whatever you think of these loons, there’s no place for police violence against peaceful protestors.

Fuck 'em. Their actions will directly put others at risk and potentially kill people.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Fuck 'em. Their actions will directly put others at risk and potentially kill people.

Government have been/are doing a pretty good job of that anyway, without plod getting baton happy.

 

[BristolEcho]

No it's not just that. Thats simplistic. Its something else, and Im struggling to grasp it.

I'm a bit late to the Hippy/alternative living debate now as most of the points have been made. Though I'll still add my observations:

The seeds have been laid for a long time in my opinion. Spent a lot of time around the psy trance scene and festivals. Went to one in Portugal very much focused as a "transformative" festival. The luminal tent there was great in many ways - I went to talks by MAPS etc. But also some of the stuff is really far out there - some guy who set up his own bank, people talking about how chemicals change your personality totally unchallenged, how mindfulness will save your life and realign your chakras.

This led me on to the whole GM/anti Monsanto stuff and then some well dodgy websites promoting totally unfactual health and diet suggestions. I used to follow a few of them before I got banned for challenging them or unfollwed them because I realised it was a load of shite. There was an Anti Monsanto page that posted shite all day long. (Though there is clearly valid criticisms of Monsanto and that's another trick really.)

This all really easily leads to the whole anti-vax, mistrust of big pharma, mistrust of governments, and then sadly into Icke and anti-Semitic territory.

Do drugs play a part? Yes, but I wouldn't say they are a root cause. I love psychedelics but have never bought into the spiritual aspect, but for some they have truly profound experiences which confirms everything they knew and then it adds to that "I know better" feeling.

The way deeply religious practices have been stripped of that and adapted to a western style consumerist mindset, but again presented as having a greater and higher understanding of yourself and the world.

Writing this I'm not even sure it's that complicated to be honest. It's the same misinformation playing out over the internet and social media that radicalsies most people, the fear factor - Vaccines cause Autism etc, groups of people that are disillusioned with the world and see an alternative then create a "tribe" that they are a part of. All of this is then reinforced by peers and from sources they trust.

Underlying all of that is the absolute fortune you can rinse these people for. Whether they then buy your clothes, your herbal products, drugs, come to your festival etc. Ironic as so much of it presents its self as anti captlist in nature.

Some of it is harmless day to day, but some of it is deeply damaging such as the Autism and anti-vax link that was clearly dismantled as not being true but has stuck like glue. I can't have time with people that bring that debate.

I did see the work being done by people to challenge this stuff though and think it's very valuable.

 

[krtek a houby]

Sadly have seen people get into antisemitism from the 'Woo' side, including a formerly dear family friend who is not mentally well

Am apprehensive about googling this "woo" stuff. What is it?

 

[killer b]

it's just a blanket term for all the various branches of new-age mysticism

 

[chilango]

Years back Larry O'Hara (iirc) did a bunch of research into the far-right and UFO circles. I dismissed it at the time as being a bit self-indulgently niche. But, I suspect revisiting it would see a few apposite similarities...

 

[Dogsauce]

There’s been a strong strand of ‘anti-science’ in hippy and protest scenes for a long time, perhaps best seen in some of the anti-GM stuff, that was mainly fought on the grounds of pseudoscience rather than anti-corporate. All that ‘Frankenfoods’ bollocks, perhaps highlighted as it would have more traction with the wider public rather than challenging capitalism itself, which too many people are bought into. Fear sells better. I mean fuck Monsanto and corporate control of the food chain, but fuck also Mother Earth nonsense.

See also some of the anti-fracking stuff with scare stories of earthquakes and flaming taps, much more dramatic than the more abstract idea of future climate harm.

Picking how these battles were fought has undermined trust in science/reason, and Covid denialism is a consequence.

 

[oryx]

As well as the new age/hippy angle there's also the increasing prevalence of distrusting experts.

Climate change and Brexit are two areas other than Covid where this is an issue.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

There’s been a strong strand of ‘anti-science’ in hippy and protest scenes for a long time, perhaps best seen in some of the anti-GM stuff, that was mainly fought on the grounds of pseudoscience rather than anti-corporate. All that ‘Frankenfoods’ bollocks, perhaps highlighted as it would have more traction with the wider public rather than challenging capitalism itself, which too many people are bought into. Fear sells better. I mean fuck Monsanto and corporate control of the food chain, but fuck also Mother Earth nonsense.

See also some of the anti-fracking stuff with scare stories of earthquakes and flaming taps, much more dramatic than the more abstract idea of future climate harm.

Picking how these battles were fought has undermined trust in science/reason, and Covid denialism is a consequence.

Some anti-GM may have been anti-science, but loads wasn't. As for Mother Earth, it was also a journal founded by Emma Goldman, famous anarchist, in the early 20th century. Pro organic agriculture, as well as an anarchist humanistic feminist scociety.
Nowt wrong with attacking fracking. It is an example of establishment carrying on with destructive behaviour despite all the evidence.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Years back Larry O'Hara (iirc) did a bunch of research into the far-right and UFO circles. I dismissed it at the time as being a bit self-indulgently niche. But, I suspect revisiting it would see a few apposite similarities...

Indeed it would, as too the 9/11 and 7/7 cults: some of the same people are involved eg Kollerstrom of Terror on the Tube fame/infamy

 

[LDC]

Nowt wrong with attacking fracking. It is an example of establishment carrying on with destructive behaviour despite all the evidence.

Nobody has suggested there is, but there was quite a large dose of bonkers ideas about it kicking around as well. I knew someone that was involved in anti-fracking that thought it would basically herald the end of the world through massive earthquakes that would rip the earth asunder (and they were far from alone with that kind of whacked out ideas about it). The also said they'd leave the UK if it was allowed here, which shows maybe they didn't really think it would bring on the end of the world...

 

[campanula]

Sigh...think I am just about ready to give up my self-declared 'hippy' denomination. May come hard as I have determinedly clung to some admittedly vague ideas of hippyness since...well, forever. Have always thought Reiki/homeopathy/ineffable skygods a load of shite. There's still the (strong) weed, thank fuck.

I have a horrible feeling that my definition of hippy (rebel heart in bright colours) has possibly been a little on the simplistic side anyway. Not sure 'socialist' really illustrates some essential nature I had fondly cherished though...and 'kind' is frankly laughable.
Adrift in a sea of gloomy uncertainty.

 

[chilango]

There's always been that sorta strand present within the eco scene afaics. I remember finding an Icke book at an EF! party back in the day and having to* burn it in front of a bunch of outraged stoned hippies. I guess it depends on the existence of stronger currents within these movements to robustly challenge such nonsense. Obviously scenes like the anti-vaxxers won't have this.


*ok, strictly speaking I didn't have to burn it in front of them. But y'know...when in doubt.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Sigh...think I am just about ready to give up my self-declared 'hippy' denomination. May come hard as I have determinedly clung to some admittedly vague ideas of hippyness since...well, forever. Have always thought Reiki/homeopathy/ineffable skygods a load of shite. There's still the (strong) weed, thank fuck.

I have a horrible feeling that my definition of hippy (rebel heart in bright colours) has possibly been a little on the simplistic side anyway. Not sure 'socialist' really illustrates some essential nature I had fondly cherished though...and 'kind' is frankly laughable.
Adrift in a sea of gloomy uncertainty.

I think the best most of us can aim for is "don't be a massive twat". Nail that bit and the rest is just window dressing...