LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Yeah, sorry! Was meaning to add it wasn't meaning to be a criticism of your post really, but I was in a rush.
Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots
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Yeah, sorry! Was meaning to add it wasn't meaning to be a criticism of your post really, but I was in a rush.
It's a shame environmentalism, or more broadly environmental concern is still largely senonamous with hippies, ravers, new age wibble.
As for the hippy / conspiracy crossover.
Atomised late capitalist shallow consumer culture
A not unhealthy curiosity and tendancy to question conventional narratives but with undeveloped criticle thinking.
A bit of the regular human need to want to belong to something, validation.
Unfettered access to information. Quality not guaranteed.
/ reckons.
As for the hippy / conspiracy crossover.
Atomised late capitalist shallow consumer culture
A not unhealthy curiosity and tendancy to question conventional narratives but with undeveloped criticle thinking.
A bit of the regular human need to want to belong to something, validation.
Unfettered access to information. Quality not guaranteed.
/ reckons.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Dogma that involves contrarianism. Or perhaps jealousy of the alt right lead them to become the alt wrong.
Or perhaps just the latest chapter in their history of misinterpreting their own feelings of shock, confusion, enforced change, the order of things and their place in that order. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater when rejecting the mainstream. Magical thinking and a poor understanding of science. Tribal snorefare.
Or perhaps just the latest chapter in their history of misinterpreting their own feelings of shock, confusion, enforced change, the order of things and their place in that order. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater when rejecting the mainstream. Magical thinking and a poor understanding of science. Tribal snorefare.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Stoners for science will be in touch soon*
* Schedule subject to slippage, squirms and contritions may apply, sinvestments can go down as well as up, reports of hippy loss of taste and smell should be sent via postcard to BO Box 101, Whackmanashire.
it isn't a 100% correlation, but it's pretty strong in my circles at least.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I'm several decades removed from such circles so I wouldnt really know. But certainly the tendency to be too easily impressed by any old rubbish and the results of any random mental dot joining exercise with more than a hint of paranoia involved are not ideal foundations for science.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I do pretty much think the festival and rave scene was a big entry point of this stuff into the left and wider society tbh. The idea of 'hippies doing too many drugs and watching David Icke on YouTube' is a cliche but it has some basis in truth. There is also the fact that certain celebrities and parts of the media have helped amplify their voices (I'm thinking of eg Russell Brand and a few others, friendly interviews being given on stuff like Unilad etc)
From earlier, re Piers Corbyn :
peterkro knew Piers Corbyn in the 70s, I knew him a bit in the late 80s/early 90s .... I bet the loon-stuff was starting to fester even then (he was always bonkers!), but the full-on conspiraloon shit came on later
peterkro said:
I've at no point denied this (eg Jazzz was lovely IRL!), and the latter overwhelms the former anyway.
peterkro knew Piers Corbyn in the 70s, I knew him a bit in the late 80s/early 90s .... I bet the loon-stuff was starting to fester even then (he was always bonkers!), but the full-on conspiraloon shit came on later
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I pretty much agree with all the recent posts about the correlation/overlap between lots of consparicism with stoners, hippies, ravers, etc etc.
I've encountered enough of that shit at festivals, alternative gigs and pubs, etc., and have been either just annoyed about it, or I've attempted to argue rationally about it -- only rarely with any success
To slightly reassure, there do exist 'hippies for science' (
), and the numbers of 'notallhippies' at festivals particularly, are not tiny 
They tend to be stoners and cider drinkers, etc., as well --- so correlation isn't causation etc., etc.
Maybe? that's just who I/we tend to hang out with though ....
The loons don't half piss me and them off though ..... sometimes all you can do is take the fucking piss! 
And you do feel in the minority sometimes -- thankfully only sometimes.
I've encountered enough of that shit at festivals, alternative gigs and pubs, etc., and have been either just annoyed about it, or I've attempted to argue rationally about it -- only rarely with any success
To slightly reassure, there do exist 'hippies for science' (
), and the numbers of 'notallhippies' at festivals particularly, are not tiny They tend to be stoners and cider drinkers, etc., as well --- so correlation isn't causation etc., etc.
Maybe? that's just who I/we tend to hang out with though ....
The loons don't half piss me and them off though
..... sometimes all you can do is take the fucking piss! And you do feel in the minority sometimes
-- thankfully only sometimes.Why do you think there might be such a significant correlation, if there's no causation?
Correlation only sometimes includes causation then. Even in the case of stoners!
There's no need to argue anyway, i was just citing some of my own experience of those circles.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
No, that is not part of the problem.
I'm not arguing, I was just wondering what other things you thought might be responsible?
Fair enough, I'll give it some thought.
New age bollocks such as found in some of the alternative healing shops and groups in Glastonbury (town -- worse than fest!) and Hebden, Totnes, etc., definitely part of it I'd say.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
"He's a nice guy, he just hates people of colour and thinks slavery was great. It's lovely to chat with him down the pub if we avoid those subjects though."
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Interesting view on how racism functions...
I'd be surprised if there's many people who would actually say anything like that, thank fuck -- I appreciate you're taking the piss though
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
I think in hippy-infused communities, like Hebden and surrounding areas where I live, you are quite right that an awful lot of people's idiotic views have been tolerated on the basis that 'their heart is in the right place' and a general feeling it was all daft rather than dangerous. I think that has changed to some extent, and actually a lot of the more extreme loons have found suddenly being challenged and ridiculed a difficult experience. But it's generally caused them to feel like some kind of oppressed minority who know the real truth and they have doubled down.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yes it is. Lets just say the last few years have been very...revealing.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Taking the piss somewhat. But I do agree with frogwoman that their point about this kind of thing is part of the problem. It's also exactly part of why labour got in such a mess with anti-semitism as well; toleration and acceptance of obnoxious cranks and racist views for some imagined 'greater good' or because they were nice and on 'the right' side more generally.
bimble
floofy
The last person i met who was a proper fan of david icke (a man who works in the kitchen at my nearest pub) was perfectly happy to say to me that yes the lizard bit is silly and i don't believe that part but all of the rest is correct.
So in his mind at least that was fine, he was picking out the bits he wanted and didn't feel that he had to buy everything in the shop. Making fun of the lizards thing wasn't the way to argue him down anyway. The thing is his questions were good questions (why is wealth concentrated in the hands of so few etc) its just he was satisfied with the first answer on youtube. That night of mostly friendly drunken arguing with him has really stuck in my mind. Have not been back to the pub since though. And i didn't tell him i'm one of them joos, didn't quite feel safe to do it that night.
So in his mind at least that was fine, he was picking out the bits he wanted and didn't feel that he had to buy everything in the shop. Making fun of the lizards thing wasn't the way to argue him down anyway. The thing is his questions were good questions (why is wealth concentrated in the hands of so few etc) its just he was satisfied with the first answer on youtube. That night of mostly friendly drunken arguing with him has really stuck in my mind. Have not been back to the pub since though. And i didn't tell him i'm one of them joos, didn't quite feel safe to do it that night.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
And sorry but that is exactly what people say, not just about antisemitism but any subject. I got told it was 'petty' to block someone over fb at uni over their support of trump ffs. You see it all the time in fb groups, 'be kind' to someone you don't agree with on masks and vaccines, BLM etc. 'I don't think I need a mask but I respect your point of view'
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Yeah, I have no problem with ridiculing loon views, or with getting your house in order when you have dodgy views proliferating. The assumption of bad intent whenever someone comes out with an iffy trope isn't something very productive ime, though. It needs to be countered, but some people get sucked into these things a little at a time and screaming 'racist!' at them when they mention something you know is iffy can just push them towards a group that trades on a persecution complex, especially if they don't know the history (for example, I can confirm that some people getting pulled into the QAnon stuff don't even know what the Blood Libel is until I tell them and provide some links).
Not that I have a great answer to the propensity of some people to believe nonsense, malevolent or otherwise.
klang
klang
I don't think it's uncommon at all. 'Let's just agree to disagree and avoid politics talk from now on'
8ball
Decolonise colons!
The last person i met who was a proper fan of david icke (a man who works in the kitchen at my nearest pub) was perfectly happy to say to me that yes the lizard bit is silly and i don't believe that part but all of the rest is correct.
So in his mind at least that was fine, he was picking out the bits he wanted and didn't feel that he had to buy everything in the shop. Making fun of the lizards thing wasn't the way to argue him down anyway. The thing is his questions were good questions (why is wealth concentrated in the hands of so few etc) its just he was satisfied with the first answer on youtube. That night of mostly friendly drunken arguing with him has really stuck in my mind. Have not been back to the pub since though. And i didn't tell him i'm one of them joos, didn't quite feel safe to do it that night.
I've met some UFO types who don't even connect the Icke lizard stuff with Jews, it's all about aliens to them. Met one who reckoned the anti-semitism thing was just an angle to discredit Icke. Like Scientology, though, I'm sure it leads to nastier places as you go through the levels.
Was the one you met an open anti-semite?
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
This is something I am really struggling with on a personal level at the moment - how much to engage in a friendly way and put an alternative opinion, and how much to accept that these are people with a whole world view and way of understanding facts and information that means I would rather generally avoid and write off as a lost cause. I guess I am thinking of them more and more as a kind of equivalent of evangelical Christians - I'd be friendly to one if they lived next door but I'd be unlikely to party with them or go to their church.
bimble
floofy
I don't actually know the answer to that. He said 'Rothschild-Zionists', a lot of times over the course of our evening together. But if i had said i'm a jew i dont know what that would have meant to him. It is weird stuff this. He was kind to me (fed me when pub was officially shut) and I liked him, in a way. Big stoner, but that doesn't prove anything.
klang
klang
That's exactly the problem though. I know people who would never dismiss anybody for their religion but still got into Rothchild stuff and blaming Zionism for the state the world is in. Friendly people but unwilling to look beyond their own agenda when joining the dots.
I operate on a very strict zero tolerance policy these days though. One strike and you are off my list as well as on my list. Can't be asked with that shit, esp because the people behind it (people 'shopping Auschwitz, pushing anti semitism etc) have a far bigger agenda than just 'questioning things'.
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