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Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

I'm fascinated by this idea that everyone wearing a mask etc does so as they believe authority knows all. No, it's cos I know authority, in relative terms, knows nothing because this is a novel virus. I accept that, once we know more, some of the precautions we have taken may turn out to have been unnecessary - maybe we could have been only 1m apart, maybe we disinfecting everything in sight has little impact (I understand it is looking that way) - but it's not because anyone was lying, stupid or trying to 'control' use. It's because when you know fuck-all about a disease, you err on the side of caution because it's better than the alternative. As we have discovered in the UK by not erring on that side as soon as it was clear that Italy was experience a total disaster.

NB bimble - I have come across Rothschild conspiracy types who are all 'Oh noooo, it's not about the Jews, just the Rothschilds' I have explained to people, patiently, that the whole Rothschild thing is a dog-whistle to the whole idea that 'The Jews are up to something', which is insidious and harmful to Jews regardless of what you may believe about talking about 'just the Rothschilds'
 
littleseb said:
I don't think it's uncommon at all. 'Let's just agree to disagree and avoid politics talk from now on'
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Yeah although tbh I've been guilty of that when in a situation where someone is really unpleasant and I'm looking for a way to shut the conversation down. :(
 
Like of course people can have complex and contradictory positions and attitudes. Someone can actually be an nice person to chat to and also have racist views. Or have good politics and be a horrendous person to spend time with. Or some other mix of stuff that's difficult to separate out.

But the modern world (I know it's a bit more than that...) encourages us to put people into simplistic categories, either 'good' or 'bad' and ignore the complexities or other aspects of their views or behaviour, and then treat them as if they could either do no wrong or be beyond help. It's been very shown up in the recent years in a whole host of topics, and a failure to challenge people on one aspect of this is a massive problem, it totally encourages its normalisation and allows it to grow in influence, and the lack of sorting the shoots of this stuff out years ago is a big reason why it's so widespread now.
 
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frogwoman said:
Yeah although tbh I've been guilty of that when in a situation where someone is really unpleasant and I'm looking for a way to shut the conversation down. :(
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I had it in my studio a year or so ago...was working with a band. Half way through the project the band turned out to be full on loon spuds. It started (of course) with a 'discussion' on 911 and went on to the usual Zionist shite. I couldn't stop the project, so I said I disagree and said to not let this get in the way of our job. I had very mixed feelings about it.
What I did (mainly to please myself): No favours, a very strict eye on the clock, charged for every minute, didn't put my best effort into it, treated it very much as a 'don't waste any time, effort or creativity on this band'.
 
I'm thinking of an experience I had a couple years ago. I was on a demo about a year previously and there was this guy I was chatting to in the cafe after the demo, in the middle of the conversation it came up that I was Jewish and then he started saying some really weird stuff to do with the holocaust that was bordering on holocaust denial, I felt really uncomfortable and left quickly. About a year or so later I started going to this anti cuts group and a few weeks in he turned up and started taking over meetings going on and on about the latest conspiracy, didn't mention jews directly but I clocked who he was and I didn't feel comfortable going back.
 
I think the idea of just zero tolerance 'blocking' everyone with shit ideas is kind of unrealistic, even if it were a good idea in principle which i'm not sure at all. You can't always choose who you have to interract with in life. For instance my trump-voting relatives, i'm not going to refuse to ever meet them again.
 
bimble said:
I think the idea of just zero tolerance 'blocking' everyone with shit ideas is kind of unrealistic, even if it were a good idea in principle which i'm not sure at all. You can't always choose who you have to interract with in life. For instance my trump-voting relatives, i'm not going to refuse to ever meet them again.
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Oh aye me too, this guy was a dick tho, used to go on about how much he loved trump in every seminar. I was perfectly polite to him in real life. I'm not saying you have to cut people off for saying something a bit stupid or dodgy or even necc for having awful views tbc. I'm just saying it relies on people not challenging it, like that's how it can get normalised. And I'm the first to admit that I've done that too.
 
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LynnDoyleCooper said:
Like of course people can have complex and contradictory positions and attitudes. Someone can actually be an nice person to chat to and also have racist views. Or have good politics and be a horrendous person to spend time with. Or some other mix of stuff thats difficult to separate out.

But the modern world (I know it's a bit more than that...) encourages us to put people into simplistic categories, either 'good' or 'bad' and ignore the complexities or other aspects of their views or behaviour, and then treat them as if they could either do no wrong or be beyond help. It's been very shown up in the recent years in a whole host of topics, and a failure to challenge people on one aspect of this is a massive problem, it totally encourages its normalisation and allows it to grow in influence, and the lack of sorting the shots of this stuff out years ago is a big reason why it's so widespread now.
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This is a way more articulate version of what I was trying to say.
And also that friends shouldn't give friends a free pass because they are friends.
 
bimble said:
I think the idea of just zero tolerance 'blocking' everyone with shit ideas is kind of unrealistic, even if it were a good idea in principle which i'm not sure at all. You can't always choose who you have to interract with in life. For instance my trump-voting relatives, i'm not going to refuse to ever meet them again.
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was more talking about closer friends who I'd happily dump once they enter loonery
 
One of the Covid deniers/anti-vaxxers I know is also an Assad apologist/RT viewer/chemtrail conspiraloon and fellow space cadet. He also thought the Charlie Hebdo massacre and Paris attacks were false flag operations and I daren’t ask him his views on 9/11 and the Diana car accident
 
Orang Utan said:
One of the Covid deniers/anti-vaxxers I know is also an Assad apologist/RT viewer/chemtrail conspiraloon and fellow space cadet. He also thought the Charlie Hebdo massacre and Paris attacks were false flag operations and I daren’t ask him his views on 9/11 and the Diana car accident
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People are pretty impossible to get along with once they're this far in tbf.
 
frogwoman said:
Oh aye me too, this guy was a dick tho, used to go on about how much he loved trump in every seminar. I was perfectly polite to him in real life. I'm not saying you have to cut people off for saying something a bit stupid or dodgy or even necc for having awful views tbc. I'm just saying it relies on people not challenging it, like that's how it can get normalised. And I'm the first to admit that I've done that too.
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My working idea at the moment is that it doesn’t matter at all what people think in the privacy of their own heads, all that matters & all I might be able to realistically change is what they feel confident to say, in public.
So making someone feel really fucking uncomfortable for going on about david Icke to everyone in the pub is good, not because I’ll change their mind but because they might stop spreading it.
But that doesn’t work so well with the anonymous internet.
 
bimble said:
I am really interested in this too, the hippy / wellness overlap with this stuff. I think it is massive. Being stoned is definitely not a requirement (though it might help with the hours absorbed by youtube videos). Believing in stuff like homeopathy / reiki probably a good start to being 'open minded' about these things but still begs the question.
I haven't met very many humans this year but of the 'covid sceptics' i've encountered almost every one has been via the yoga teacher next door. One of the things that is true too is that women are very much more likely to buy into this stuff than men, statistically. Some of that will probably be that it's more likely women googling vaccines when children are at the age to be innoculated, but it's got to be more than that.
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It’s weird because while I don’t doubt you at all (and I bumped into a yoga bloke I know the other day who wasn’t wearing a mask... and although cut him off at the conversational pass, I suspect he’s a denier).... none of the (what you’d call) hippy types I know personally as friends are deniers. None of them. Even the one I mentioned much earlier who sent me a video and asked “what do you think...?” has not fallen down the hole. Everyone I know personally is fully on board with the facts.

Amongst those I know who are deniers (and I do know them but they’re not my in my close friendship group) some are hippy types. and maybe I’ve not become friends with them because despite having outward signifiers that you might consider common to us both, we actually don’t have much in common, as proved by the fact that they’re deniers and I’m not.

Sorry, rambling a bit now.

I’m saying that I have encountered many deniers, and while some of them are hippy types, most others are from a completely different demographic. And on the surface at least, these different groups have very little in common.

But I also I also know plenty of people who, on the face of it, have a great deal in common with that second group of people, who are fully on board with the facts.

It’s not as clear or simple as “believes in reiki, gets stoned ergo gullible to nonsense”.
 
lazythursday said:
If I put all my hippyish friends and acquaintances on a spectrum with 'eco' at one end and 'new age' at the other that is a pretty reliable predictor of their views on Covid. Pretty much every single one who has had any kind of spiritual leaning is in the anti-mask anti-vax camp. The only exceptions are those with pre-existing medical conditions, who are understandably feeling pretty let down / isolated. Given that these things (green politics / eco living / new age healing) have often gone hand in hand in the past (eg things like the Green Gathering) I do wonder how this sometimes acrimonious split will play out in these circles.

Then I think there is another slightly different camp - bloody minded libertarians, usually men, who have spent their life trying to avoid the state, avoid proper jobs / careers, travellers, on festie scene, drug dealers etc and they just cannot conceive of any measure from the government being benign or a good idea and can't tolerate any sort of restriction on their freedom whatsoever. (often people with a fucking awful record in personal relationships roo)
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Again not doubting your own observations are true from your perspective.

But I can tell you categorically that those of my friends who would be considered pretty definitely “hippy” by Urban are not Covid deniers.
 
bimble said:
My working idea at the moment is that it doesn’t matter at all what people think in the privacy of their own heads, all that matters & all I might be able to realistically change is what they feel confident to say, in public.
So making someone feel really fucking uncomfortable for going on about david Icke to everyone in the pub is good, not because I’ll change their mind but because they might stop spreading it.
But that doesn’t work so well with the anonymous internet.
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I spent a bit of time earlier this year arguing on facebook with my kids grandmother, who would share her conspiracy theories from the most lurid sources - UFOologist website, hard right yank christian sites who also pushed gay conversion and holocause denial, etc etc. She still believes all the covid denial & anti-vax stuff and spends most of her day sharing various articles about it on facebook, but I've noticed she's a lot more careful with her sources now. I'm not actually sure this is better - I've basically trained her to make sure all her sources appear legit before posting them, and she's therefore more believable to the unwary. Ho hum.
 
frogwoman said:
I do pretty much think the festival and rave scene was a big entry point of this stuff into the left and wider society tbh. The idea of 'hippies doing too many drugs and watching David Icke on YouTube' is a cliche but it has some basis in truth. There is also the fact that certain celebrities and parts of the media have helped amplify their voices (I'm thinking of eg Russell Brand and a few others, friendly interviews being given on stuff like Unilad etc)
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But then it becomes lazy prejudice.
 
How this stuff arrives and then plays out in left wing, alternative/counter-cultural, and hippie circles is slightly different to how it arrives and then plays out within wider society though, although in the later stages it's more similar in both.
 
And the idiots are back again this weekend

What is feared to be the largest anti-lockdown protest yet is being planned for Central London this weekend, despite the capital moving into Tier 3 measures.

The virus is still spreading fast with boroughs across South and East London seeing worrying spikes.

A Police union boss has said that it could be the 'biggest protest of the year' so far and has urged politicians to intervene.
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www.mylondon.news

The 'biggest ever' anti-lockdown protest is taking place this weekend

Hundreds of police officers are being deployed
www.mylondon.news www.mylondon.news
 
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