Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[NoXion]

I thought the government was relying (too much) on vaccines as a way out of serial lockdowns, vaccine skepticism would seem to demolish that. The government's pandemic strategy is a disaster for everyone except the mates they've enriched, but at least it recognises the efficacy of vaccination.

 

[Gromit]

I thought the government was relying (too much) on vaccines as a way out of serial lockdowns, vaccine skepticism would seem to demolish that. The government's pandemic strategy is a disaster for everyone except the mates they've enriched, but at least it recognises the efficacy of vaccination.

They are relying on vacination AND wide spread testing.

Tests are currently widely and freely (emphasis on free) available.

Someone is no doubt is also get fat off the government teat by supplying these free tests. Not sure how long they will remain free.

 

[Dystopiary]

Deepti Gurdasani:

This 'top down strategy' to get support for anti-vaxx agendas from MPs from govt may go a way to explain why UK vaccine strategy is out of line with most other countries currently. They're clearly not following the evidence. The question is who they are listening to.

 

[emanymton]

Deepti Gurdasani:

In what way is it out of line?

 

[elbows]

Vaccinating kids is the main issue that is causing divisions in that area and where comparisons with other countries shows an obvious difference.

Personally I dont thinnk the anit-vax, anti-lockdown etc attempts to influence the government are what is responsible for the UKs current policy in regards vaccinating children. Its more likely down to how traditional UK establishment attitudes have combined with risk-reward balance of vaccination in younger age groups, combined with the realities of vaccine supply and logistics in the UK, including timing of future booster shots for older adults deemed at higher risk. I dont really know to what extent the policy will change over time.

Indie SAGE have a position on vaccinating children and in this case I think they are just stretching too far to fit the HART revelations into their narrative about this issue.

 

[Dystopiary]

In what way is it out of line?

Out of line with other countries? Well our gov is relying heavily on vaccines without being cautious in other areas as well - their "let it rip" policy, letting the health service and its workers get hammered. I can't know if she meant all that specifically; I just thought it might be worth showing that an epidemologist and public researcher, who's been very outspoken and informative during the covid crisis, has concerns regarding the Logically piece. I'm not sure the government is being influenced by those types (HART), but that she has those concerns was maybe worth pointing out. Imo.

 

[Gromit]

Vaccinating kids is the main issue that is causing divisions in that area and where comparisons with other countries shows an obvious difference.

Personally I dont thinnk the anit-vax, anti-lockdown etc attempts to influence the government are what is responsible for the UKs current policy in regards vaccinating children. Its more likely down to how traditional UK establishment attitudes have combined with risk-reward balance of vaccination in younger age groups, combined with the realities of vaccine supply and logistics in the UK, including timing of future booster shots for older adults deemed at higher risk. I dont really know to what extent the policy will change over time.

Indie SAGE have a position on vaccinating children and in this case I think they are just stretching too far to fit the HART revelations into their narrative about this issue.

Government policy will be decided as it's always been decided.

Experts will submit reports to civil servants, civil servants will translate the reports into briefings and recommendations. These will be passed to the ministers.

The cabinet will then ignore the briefings and do what their Special Advisors (political advisors not field experts) and donor lobbyists tell them to do slightly moderated by opinion polls.

I know this process well as a former civil servant whose briefings were largely ignored.

 

[Gromit]

Government policy will be decided as it's always been decided.

Experts will submit reports to civil servants, civil servants will translate the reports into briefings and recommendations. These will be passed to the ministers.

The cabinet will then ignore the briefings and do what their Special Advisors (political advisors not field experts) and donor lobbyists tell them to do slightly moderated by opinion polls.

I know this process well as a former civil servant whose briefings were largely ignored.

The only good thing I have to stay about special advisors is that will on occasion persuade ministers that their own half baked layman ideas they wanted to run with (e.g.. Drinking bleach, although Trump still ran with that one as I suspect he came up with that on the spot and hadn't told anyone) aren't actually a good idea.

 

[existentialist]

They are relying on vacination AND wide spread testing.

Tests are currently widely and freely (emphasis on free) available.

Someone is no doubt is also get fat off the government teat by supplying these free tests. Not sure how long they will remain free.

Nobody will pay for them, unless they have to. It would be a massive own goal. Which is in no way to say it won't happen

 

[emanymton]

Out of line with other countries? Well our gov is relying heavily on vaccines without being cautious in other areas as well - their "let it rip" policy, letting the health service and its workers get hammered. I can't know if she meant all that specifically; I just thought it might be worth showing that an epidemologist and public researcher, who's been very outspoken and informative during the covid crisis, has concerns regarding the Logically piece. I'm not sure the government is being influenced by those types (HART), but that she has those concerns was maybe worth pointing out. Imo.

But she seems to be suggesting the government is being influenced by anti-vax thinking which is pretty much the exact opposite of relaying on them.

And she says vaccine strategy not covid strategy in general. So what is it about the UK vaccine strategy specifically that is out of step and looks to be being influenced by anti-vax thinking.

 

[BigMoaner]

I'd be surprised anti vaxers have any influence at all anywhere in regards institutions that have half a brain. Most ordinary people, right or left, see them for what they are... Deeply self certain lunatics.

 

[elbows]

But she seems to be suggesting the government is being influenced by anti-vax thinking which is pretty much the exact opposite of relaying on them.

And she says vaccine strategy not covid strategy in general. So what is it about the UK vaccine strategy specifically that is out of step and looks to be being influenced by anti-vax thinking.

I already answered that. Its the question of vaccinating children. And I already said that I dont really agree with Indie SAGE members trying to associate that decision with anti-vax thinking. Although since the risks vs rewards debate would include consideration of public confidence in vaccines, there is a link, just not the one suggested in that tweet.

Here for example is todays news that Irealnd will vaccinate 12-15 year olds. Unfortunately it includes a quote from the shithead Dingwall, who contrary to what they say is no longer on the JVCI, he has lost that and his NERVTAG role recently.

UK reports 23,511 cases in seventh daily drop in a row – as it happened

This blog is now closed. You can find all of our coverage of the pandemic here.

www.theguardian.com

 

[friendofdorothy]

I heard that there was an antivax demo going on in westminster at the same time as the 'Pride is a protest' demo last saturday. One of the antivax lot was taking exception to mask wearing and actually spat at the face of my mask wearing 70 year old friend. I find this deeply alarming. Is this isolated incident but an individual nutter, or are there many of these anti mask objectors out there?

 

[l'Otters]

They are such cowards.

I’m sorry to hear how your friend was treated.

I was at the pride is a protest demo & picnic. I went past the antivax lot in Trafalgar Square on the way to find the pride demo. It was surreal. There were quite a lot of them. I think I heard someone say “take your mask off” as they were passing but couldn’t tell if it was directed at me or any of the other random people on that traffic island. As far as I could tell the pride demo passed them without much attention, although of course I only saw how it was for one small section.

The picnic in Hyde Park was lovely. Some hours in, after a fair amount of people had drifted off, the antivax demo filed into the park. (Why they needed to come to exactly that part of Hyde park? It’s a big enough space.) I didn’t see how this was worked out but the antivax crowd settled on the other side of a path to the pride crowd. When I was ready to leave the antivax crowd were between me and my way home. I figured I’d just walk down the path thru the middle of it, with my companion, and I’d do it with my mask on. We got a few looks but the best anyone had verbally was a couple of “excuse me”s from some beery blokes. That was it.

I had a bloke from the antivax demo opposite me on the train later on - I related this on the “will you continue wearing a mask after July 19th” thread - he couldn’t even look at me when he told me I should take my mask off. Like I said. Cowards.

 

[rubbershoes]

I don't know if the policy on vaccinating children is influenced by the fact that the UK (or would it just be England?) may not have enough Pfizer shots to do it.

When they get more, the policy may change.

 

[Johnny Doe]

I was at the pride is a protest demo & picnic. I went past the antivax lot in Trafalgar Square on the way to find the pride demo. It was surreal. There were quite a lot of them.

Could you have a guess how many?

 

[rekil]

I had a bloke from the antivax demo opposite me on the train later on - I related this on the “will you continue wearing a mask after July 19th” thread - he couldn’t even look at me when he told me I should take my mask off. Like I said. Cowards.

"Make me you loon cult fucking cunt" might be an apposite rejoinder.

 

[existentialist]

"Make me you loon cult fucking cunt" might be an apposite rejoinder.

It's worth noting that, legally speaking, if someone reached to your face to rip your mask off, you could well be justified in having a genuine belief that they were going to do you harm, and any (proportionate) violence on your part would be covered by a defence of self-defence. I'm not sure how that works if you tell them to try, and they do. I guess it depends on the likelihood of witnesses backing you up.

 

[LDC]

It's worth noting that, legally speaking, if someone reached to your face to rip your mask off, you could well be justified in having a genuine belief that they were going to do you harm, and any (proportionate) violence on your part would be covered by a defence of self-defence. I'm not sure how that works if you tell them to try, and they do. I guess it depends on the likelihood of witnesses backing you up.

Yeah, I've wondered about that as well. Given that it could result in you catching covid and then dying, someone pulling your mask off or coughing on you (especially if they had covid and knew it) could be regarded as a attack/assault in which the end result could be you dying, so responding in proportion to that might be an arguable case?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Yeah, I've wondered about that as well. Given that it could result in you catching covid and then dying, someone pulling your mask off or coughing on you (especially if they had covid and knew it) could be regarded as a attack/assault in which the end result could be you dying, so responding in proportion to that might be an arguable case?

There's been cases of people ending up in jail for coughing on essential workers.

Anyone using coronavirus to threaten emergency and essential workers faces serious criminal charges, the Director of Public Prosecutions warns today.

The CPS intervention comes after reports in recent days of police, shop workers and vulnerable groups being deliberately coughed at by people claiming to have the disease.

Such behaviour is illegal and assaults specifically against emergency workers are punishable by up to 12 months in prison.

Coughs directed as a threat at other key workers or members of the public could be charged as common assault.

‘Coronavirus coughs’ at key workers will be charged as assault, CPS warns | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[existentialist]

Yeah, I've wondered about that as well. Given that it could result in you catching covid and then dying, someone pulling your mask off or coughing on you (especially if they had covid and knew it) could be regarded as a attack/assault in which the end result could be you dying, so responding in proportion to that might be an arguable case?

Weren't there some prosecutions of people, early in the pandemic, who had deliberately coughed on people? It counts as common assault, unless it's directed at an emergency worker, in which case it becomes an offence under the Assaults on Emergency Workers (Offences) Act 2018

 

[l'Otters]

Could you have a guess how many?

In Trafalgar Square, a few thousand.
In Hyde park, dunno, much more spread out. A few hundred, maybe up to 1,000.
I’m no good at guesstimating large numbers of people though. There’s sure to be figures from more reliable sources.

 

[editor]

It's worth noting that, legally speaking, if someone reached to your face to rip your mask off, you could well be justified in having a genuine belief that they were going to do you harm, and any (proportionate) violence on your part would be covered by a defence of self-defence. I'm not sure how that works if you tell them to try, and they do. I guess it depends on the likelihood of witnesses backing you up.

A person trying to rip off your mask would certainly be guilty of assault.

 

[LDC]

That's the legal system dealing with it as a normal non-covid issue. Coughing on, or pulling a mask off, someone would be assault pre-pandemic. The argument could be made now it's different as it risks life.

 

[cupid_stunt]

That's the legal system dealing with it as a normal non-covid issue. Coughing on, or pulling a mask off, someone would be assault pre-pandemic. The argument could be made now it's different as it risks life.

I am sure that argument comes up in court, judging by some of the sentences handed out.

This guy out 6 months.

Coronavirus: Man jailed for coughing on police officer

Adam Lewis told the officer "I am Covid and I am going to cough in your face and you will get it".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[existentialist]

That's the legal system dealing with it as a normal non-covid issue. Coughing on, or pulling a mask off, someone would be assault pre-pandemic. The argument could be made now it's different as it risks life.

The difference is that such an act would (not sure of the legal words) cause fear of infection in the victim, which would be an aggravating factor.

But, perhaps more relevantly in the moment of the assault, the fear of infection would itself be a justifiable reason for attempting to defend oneself, by (for example) preventing the person from removing your mask.

It gets a bit dodgy if someone spat on you, as it might be harder to argue that any subsequent action you took against the spitter was self-defence, as the assault would have already taken place, and you would have to demonstrate that you were in ongoing fear of a further assault.

 

[Johnny Doe]

View attachment 280733

No comment from him in the comments below about the call for doctors and nurses to be hung, the Ickes speaking, along with Katie Hopkins. Maybe he's realised and i embarassed? Not a bit of it, just ignores it and then:
View attachment 280734

My favourite response to this bottom one on FB:

 

[friendofdorothy]

I think spitting on someone is common assault anyway - but who from a Pride demo would want to involve the police.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

saw a post on facebook about organising "fake booking" campaign for vaccination in OZ by the antivaxx :/

 

[BigMoaner]

"Make me you loon cult fucking cunt" might be an apposite rejoinder.

Close the thread. Something very cathartic in reading that