Did the US Troops really capture Saddam

[pk]

Come on Jazzz... you created your own special forums for this type of bollocks now, why don't you use them eh?

 

[Lock&Light]

Come on Jazzz... you created your own special forums for this type of bollocks now, why don't you use them eh?

Just like you, pk, Dr. Jazzz requires responses.

 

[fela fan]

Come on Jazzz... you created your own special forums for this type of bollocks now, why don't you use them eh?

Pk, why do you think that since his capture, we've heard nor seen sight of the man? Nothing. Not a peep. And it is my impression that the american and british media have pretty much lost all interest too.

Why is that, considering that we were told we had to go to war to oust the man who was such a danger to western countries and world peace?

According to the USUKGs and media, hussein was one of the world's nastiest leaders who had to be got at all costs. Get him we did, then both these groupings, complicit with each other, have dropped the news of him like a lead balloon. Such a newsworthy item, able to sell millions of papers for days on end, yet this captured man is no longer news. Could it be that it wasn't Hussein?

You're right, it's FUCKING BOLLOX man! Where is he??? I want to know where this man Hussein is.

 

[Lock&Light]

Pk, why do you think that since his capture, we've heard nor seen sight of the man? Nothing. Not a peep.

Do you remember a certain thug called Noriego. A gangster, like Saddam, who stole his nation from his fellow citizens. He was threatened, taken on and cornered before ending up in one of the USA's high security prisons. Do you still hear about him? Is there any reason why you should?

Logic has never been one of your strong points, has it, mate?

 

[editor]

I'm unaware of such people that you refer to who have identified Saddam having met him in captivity. Can you name any of them? If so that would certainly be a valid contribution to the discussion - but if you are just assuming they exist because the US military says so, you can take a running jump...

I'm referring to the hundreds - maybe thousands or tens of thousands - of people (diplomats, colleagues, journalists, family, fellow politicians etc) who don't seem to be questioning the official version of events.

You seem to think you know better, so perhaps you might explain why you prefer to believe the words of an anonymous journalist posting on what appears to be a rather dodgy health-food sponsored site instead of people who actually knew, met and worked with Saddam?

 

[editor]

And it is my impression that the american and british media have pretty much lost all interest too..

How much British and American media do you watch, per day?

I seem to recall you saying that you barely ever watch or read any British media at all, if ever.

 

[pbman]

How much British and American media do you watch, per day?

I seem to recall you saying that you barely ever watch or read any British media at all, if ever.

I recall the exact same thing.

And i recall fela fan, being a little loose with the facts as well.

 

[fela fan]

Do you remember a certain thug called Noriego. A gangster, like Saddam, who stole his nation from his fellow citizens. He was threatened, taken on and cornered before ending up in one of the USA's high security prisons. Do you still hear about him? Is there any reason why you should?

Logic has never been one of your strong points, has it, mate?

You might be right on that mate, sometimes it's easier for others to observe you than to do so oneself. Even though i try to observe myself all the time. And thinking about your comment, i don't actually like logic, the western varitey, so perhaps you're right. I have much more time for the instincts of the heart, and logic is the preserve of the brain.

As for Noriega, if you can confirm that in the month after his arrest he had already been forgotten by both media and politicians, then i can accept your parallel. Because Noriega WAS kind of captured quite a few years ago now, so you can't use the comparison you did in this post. Compare Noreiga and Hussein on the same timescale and get back to me.

Coz i hope your logic ain't gonna fall down here...

 

[fela fan]

How much British and American media do you watch, per day?

I seem to recall you saying that you barely ever watch or read any British media at all, if ever.

If you could just for one moment get beyond your desperate urge to snipe and score points, you'd open your mind up a bit, never mind learn to read the english language properly. You have levelled this at me before, and again instead of answering my doubts for me (you live in the country, you are involved in the media), you choose to snipe and attempt to humiliate me(which in my case is impossible coz i don't care about anything in this world).

I said it was 'MY IMPRESSION' coz i don't bloody live there, therefore i cannot know for sure, and nor do i want to upset myself by looking at the british rags online. So i ask questions of urbanites who do live in Britain, and based on the answers i got, i am of the IMPRESSION that the british media are no longer interested in the story of Hussein.

If someone, like yourself for example, could simply tell me what coverage Hussein is getting in the media in Britain these days, then i would be able to convert my impression into something more concrete.

But, hey, don't let me get in the way of your sport mate. You just carry on any which way you choose. It's your life.

 

[fela fan]

I recall the exact same thing.

And i recall fela fan, being a little loose with the facts as well.

And as i've told you before mate, i have little time for facts. They are subjective, so naturally i'm well fucking loose with them. I prefer to live with my own experiences and truths, things i can confirm for myself.

So you carry on with your facts, the ones you believe, and i'll carry on with my experiences, the ones i know.

Then we'll both remain happy

 

[Jazzz]

I'm referring to the hundreds - maybe thousands or tens of thousands - of people (diplomats, colleagues, journalists, family, fellow politicians etc) who don't seem to be questioning the official version of events.

You seem to think you know better, so perhaps you might explain why you prefer to believe the words of an anonymous journalist posting on what appears to be a rather dodgy health-food sponsored site instead of people who actually knew, met and worked with Saddam?

So I may only believe that which you read in the papers! And anything that doesn't appear there cannot exist. Hurrah!

I don't 'believe' gulufuture any more than gulufuture 'believes' me. However we both disbelieve the US military. There's a difference...

 

[editor]

So I may only believe that which you read in the papers! And anything that doesn't appear there cannot exist. Hurrah!

Who needs the papers, the UK, Arab, and world news media and acknowledged independent investigative journalists when you can simply buy into unsupported, unsubstantiated claims authored by anonymous, unqualified authors posting up on highly dubious sites with no track record whatsoever of ever producing a single credible journalistic investigation? Hurrah!

 

[Jazzz]

Once again, I didn't 'buy in' to any internet article. Neither did I 'buy in' to the claims of the US Military. My scepticism was there from the start, and you can check this by reading the thread.

You reveal that you believe the US military claim, simply because it is accepted in the papers. I'm sorry but that just ain't good enough for me, but each to their own, eh?

 

[editor]

I'm sorry but that just ain't good enough for me, but each to their own, eh?

Indeed. I still can't forget the deeply offensive bullshit you posted up when you proclaimed a stinking, filthy double child murderer completely innocent of all crimes just because you'd read some ill-informed shite on some ill-informed bullshit website.

As I recall, you announced that the defence team had been 'nobbled' and - bizarrely - claimed that you could have done a better job of defending Huntley, despite having no legal qualifications whatsoever!

Despite being quick to condemn all mainstream media outlets, you seemed to have no problem finding the 'evidence' posted up by clueless clowns like Vialls to be more than 'good enough for you'.

In fact, you were so convinced about the (non-existent) involvement of US serviceman that you proudly announced that a (completely untrained) police dog had 'proved' Huntley's complete innocence beyond any doubt.

I believe the title of your triumphant thread went along the lines of "Police dog and policewoman proves Huntley's innocence!"

And you got it completely and utterly wrong.

In fact, if you'd had your way, a disgusting multiple child murderer would have walked free from court.

Personally, that disgusts me.

But each to their own, eh?

 

[Jazzz]

<general, long-winded boot kick about Huntley>

There's a lot that still puzzles me about that case but I had the courage to admit I could well have been wrong. Stobart Spotter corrected me on the police dog question and I accepted that in the next post.

I've expected a bit of stick for the Huntley episode because I did go in quite hard on it, (there is a tendency to defend as strongly as possible when you come under fire from the likes of pk etc.) And I got it, of course. And didn't complain. But I think most posters are pretty tired of it now, if they weren't already at the time.

To endlessly refer to it - and at length - is really rather cheap and just demonstrates that you are unable to debate your position properly on the topic in question.

 

[fela fan]

To endlessly refer to it - and at length - is really rather cheap and just demonstrates that you are unable to debate your position properly on the topic in question.

He keeps referring to it mate to coz he's more interested in denigrating and bullying and humiliating other posters rather than debating the issues. Mainly coz the ground he's debating from on this thread is decidedly shaky, and can only be defended by taking the spotlight off it by constantly swiping at you. Or me occasionally. Or whoever else feels it necessary to be highly dubious of anything this current USG do.

But as evidenced by his complete non-reply to my last pertinently written post, that ground actually gave way a while back.

He goes on about deeply offensive shit all the time, but he himself is champion at being downright rude and offensive and hostile to posters such as yourself. Your crime? To be open-minded.

It's a dangerous game mate!!

 

[editor]

I've expected a bit of stick for the Huntley episode because I did go in quite hard on it...

'Quite hard'?!! You declared a disgusting double child killer to be completely innocent of all crimes, totally oblivious to just how offensive many people found your ludicrous Vialls'-inspired rantings. You claimed that the US Air Force were involved, the jury nobbled, the defence incompetent and Huntley stitched up by a government hell bent on covering up the story. Without a scrap of evidence!

And I refer to it because I was hoping you'd have learnt from it.

Unfortunately, you still continue to make wild, unsubstantiated claims about world-fooling conspiracies based on the same kind of evidence-untroubled, 'found on the internet', anonymously-authored, conspiracy cobblers.

So if you keep on making those definitive conspiracy claims, I'll continue to challenge your bold announcements of the 'truth' that us ignorant fools are clearly unable to see.

You see, I think I'm a reasonably intelligent, logical kinda chap, and I find it just a teensy weensy bit offensive to be constantly told that I'm too stupid to see these 'obvious' conspiracies, whereas you - and a handful of anonymous, unqualified, source-free internet authors - are somehow smart enough to see through.

 

[infobomb]

I dunno, I used to get quite pissed off at the whole nose-tapping 'in-crowd' cliquey crap that would go on between people who advocated lines such as this one. Now it's just really rather boring.

It's a difficult editorial question because if these things aren't challenged, you could end up with a board entirely populated with conspiracy theories, which would alienate a lot of potential posters and risk killing and discrediting the boards entirely.

But I don't think they'd have to be challenged if they weren't s often phrased in such sensationalist, patronising language.

I don't agree with this particular argument, because I don't see any reason to disbelieve the capture, and there's enough corroboration in the way that the situation has evolved to satisfy me. I don't see major cries of 'conspiracy' from the places that I would expect to see something like this break, mediawise; nor do I see anything politically that really contradicts the idea that he's been captured. Am I wrong? Maybe, who knows.... I don't think I am, and I'll keep on thinking what I think and we'll see whether my assumptions allow me to continue functioning effectively in what I do. So far it hasn't caused me too many problems.

I imagine that Jazz and Fela et al will do much the same.

I don't much appreciate being accused of not being open-minded for that, I'll have you know, but I really can't be arsed to kick up a fuss about it, personally.

 

[fela fan]

Do you know info, and unusually for you, i've read your post three times and i just don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about!!

I still think it was hussein, but i've said that already on this thread (and so has dr jazzz!), but that wasn't what i was talking about recently.

Have you been drinking mate ??

 

[infobomb]

Jazz isn't saying that it isn't Saddam in the video; he's saying that he's not in captivity and is in Russia or Syria keeping his mouth shut in return for his freedom and some cash.

I rather thought you agreed with him, though I could have that one wrong.

I don't agree with him. No harm done there though.

 

[fela fan]

Jazz isn't saying that it isn't Saddam in the video; he's saying that he's not in captivity and is in Russia or Syria keeping his mouth shut in return for his freedom and some cash.

I rather thought you agreed with him, though I could have that one wrong.

I don't agree with him. No harm done there though.

I don't have a fucking clue about where hussein is! But i'd sure like to know why we don't hear about him any more.

As for the good drj, whether i agree with him is irrelevant to my posting on such threads, i just like to defend him against the onslaughts he has to put up with, the attacks on his character.

Still don't have a clue what you posted back there, but that might be coz it's way past my bedtime, and i have a thai class tomorrow morning...

 

[editor]

As for the good drj, whether i agree with him is irrelevant to my posting on such threads, i just like to defend him against the onslaughts he has to put up with, the attacks on his character.

What 'onslaughts' are they?

I've only attacked his ludicrous unsubstantiated claims and his foolish habit of proclaiming woefully dodgy and under-researched conspiracy theories to be the 'truth'.

But as I've said repeatedly, I like the fella in real life.

 

[infobomb]

Fela - news cycles. They don't last very long these days. Saddam's old, old news as far as the broadcasters are concerned.


As for my post: try splitting it into two bits.

The first bit is about conspiracy theories.

The bit that starts 'I don't agree with this particular argument' is about the Saddam-in-hiding bit.

If that doesn't clear it up, maybe you should go to bed mate.

 

[fela fan]

But as I've said repeatedly, I like the fella in real life.

Then what of your enemies, withering away at the end of your highly sharpened honed pen?? Allah give them strength and courage...

But, joking aside, a curiosity of mine: to me urban is simply part of real life, whereas you seem to indicate with that comment that urban is an extension, not really part of reality, not the same as real life, or whatever.

If we were in a pub, and things remained civil, if at times heated, would you debate the same things in the same style in the same manner as you do on the political forums here, or would you enagage in, erm, a larger dose of civility??

 

[editor]

If we were in a pub, and things remained civil, if at times heated, would you debate the same things in the same style in the same manner as you do on the political forums here, or would you enagage in, erm, a larger dose of civility??

If a friend in a pub presented me with the kind of loosely formed, dubiously-sourced, fact-lite arguments that DrJ regularly conjures up here, I'd argue with them just as vigorously and tell them that they're talking total bollocks.

Just so long as they weren't offending the people around with unpleasant tales of a disgusting child murderer actually being as innocent as a new born lamb, I'm sure we'd have a rip roaring night, and soon move on to more interesting topics of conversation.

Y'see, I don't think there's anything particularly 'uncivil' about my debate with DrJ: I haven't called him a wanker or anything like that, but I do think that in his immense enthusiasm to discover globe-fooling conspiracies he tends to let his imagination get the better of him and jump to wild conclusions.

But I certainly wouldn't have a problem spending an evening in the pub with him - or you for the matter. I may disagree with you vehemently on many issues, but that doesn't mean I dislike you, does it?

Anyway, I like having a good lively chat in a decent pub full of interesting people. Get your arse over here and I might even buy you a pint!

 

[someoneelse]

just for the record, I noticed the ICRC is still waiting to be allowed to see Saddam Hussein (or whoever is being held) as is a right for Prisoners of War...

 

[Wess]

Personally I can't see any reason as to why the media would want to go on printing pictures of Saddam...There is no more "News" to report other than the fact that he has been caught.

I also still have an unanswered question...Why would the US fake him being captured? What have they got to gain by this?.

Not much to gain but an incredibly lot to loose with the election coming up...

 

[fela fan]

Personally I can't see any reason as to why the media would want to go on printing pictures of Saddam...There is no more "News" to report other than the fact that he has been caught.

I also still have an unanswered question...Why would the US fake him being captured? What have they got to gain by this?.

Not much to gain but an incredibly lot to loose with the election coming up...

A saddam hussein who was tried in an international court would know he is doomed. He would also have rather a lot to say about his support from all manner of western leaders and ex-leaders, info that none of them want anywhere near a western newspaper. The man can incriminate all manner of politicians who aided and abetted in his slaughter of iranians and kurds. And being doomed, why on earth would he not bring down others with him?

If this hussein is a fake one, then the real one, and all his western politician cohorts would never have to face the music. Meanwhile, pretending to capture the real one was worth a lot of kudos points to bush et al.

I don't think what i've painted there is far-fetched at all.

No more news to report?? You are joking right???? I wasn't talking about just publishing pix of the killer. I was wondering why the western press aren't interested in his whereabouts and who is going to try him, and where, and when. And what info we have gleaned from Hussein as to where his WMD are, you know, the reason our three countries went steaming in? Fucking plenty of stuff for the public to be told mate. Fucking plenty.

After all this was the second most dangerous man all of last year. Now he warrants not a peep, not a column inch.

Personally it seems a D notice in britain has gone out to the media there, adn in the US no such thing is needed anyway since their media are little more than a government mouthpiece.

 

[fela fan]

Anyway, I like having a good lively chat in a decent pub full of interesting people. Get your arse over here and I might even buy you a pint!

My memory's pretty shit these days, but when it comes to beer it's longer than an elephant's. And it'll have to be coz i can't see me making a trip till next year!

I concede, debating via writing is infinitely slower than the quickfire conversation method. And far less limiting in terms of time and making instant clarifications.

I dunno that we particularly disagree on that many things politically, obviously on 'conspiracy theories' though. But as i get older i'm moving onto a discourse that is rooted in non-political and other non-dogma related defaults. If that enlightens any on my posting here on urban... I'm just fucking fed up these days on the divisiveness of politics and religions, which affects the common man just as much as the murdering leaders . And which has been responsible for the thousands of wars throughout man's history.

 

[infobomb]

No more news to report?? You are joking right???? I wasn't talking about just publishing pix of the killer. I was wondering why the western press aren't interested in his whereabouts and who is going to try him, and where, and when. And what info we have gleaned from Hussein as to where his WMD are, you know, the reason our three countries went steaming in? Fucking plenty of stuff for the public to be told mate. Fucking plenty.

Er Fela, there have been several reports since his capture about this kind of thing. There were a few in right-wing papers that claimed that he might have begun to tell his captors something, but those gradually faded away in favour of reports saying that he was immensely uncooperative. Unsurprisingly. Then there was an article claiming that his captors were showing him vides of dead Kurds and Iranians in an attempt to tweak his conscience.

Oh yeah, and there's the Red Cross coverage.

And there's been quite a bit of debate over the best place to try him, but given that the Americans aren't keen on making that a discussion point, there's not really a lot of interaction going on there - once the pundits had their say, that was all there was to it. Now we all just wait and see....

But it's utterly false to suggest that there's been no press coverage whatsoever.