Democratic? No public enquiry on the 7/7 bombings.

[Prole]

Editor: Or do you prefer to repeat and spread unverified, fact-unsupported, unresearched conspiracy stories posted up by God-knows-who just because they happen to suit your theory?

My theory being what precisely?

Editor: have you done anything to verify this claim with a credible source before slapping it up here?

I thought I was checking with a credible source by asking BK if she knew.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Have you asked indymedia where they "heard" that the bombed coaches had supposedly been scrapped? have you done anything to verify this claim with a credible source before slapping it up here?

This isn't even Indymedia (unreliable as it can be) either - it's "indycymru", some one-man-and-his-dog operation which, surprisingly enough, has "what really happened" and "hunt the boeing" and so on on the front page.

 

[TeeJay]

Do you happen to know if this train has now been scrapped? According to Indycymru
this will prevent any independent forensics to be carrried out.

According to Indycymru? It looks like *you* posted that there (the name matches your blog name).

edit: Oh I see - a footnote added underneath your post by the site owner saying "Note: We hear the bombed coaches have now been scrapped. Blair is determined that no independent forensics are done." but with no source, link or explanation of where they heard this information...

 

[sparticus]

To go through this is one thing, to be made out to be a liar by conspiracy theorists is almost unforgivable.

First up my deepest sympathies for the trauma and suffering you have experienced.

Second who is making you out to be a liar exactly?

It is entirely possible that agents of HMG were involved in the attacks of 7/7 and/or the cover-up of embarrassing/incriminating evidence and for every word you have ever said as a witness to be true. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

As the bombing of the WTC in 1993 demonstrated it is not unknown for agents of western governments to actively support terrorists. This is just one example of many many others. I doubt whether the families of the dead and injured from this incident would have automatically have suspected the FBI of direct involvement, but they would have been wrong.

For this reason I support the call for a public inquiry and not just an official dossier, sorry I mean narrative.

 

[Jazzz]

Anymore tripe about the iccadilly line suicide bombings you feel like throwing out? I can't say I enjoy this, but anything to stop the lies, which I find deeply insulting. To go through this is one thing, to be made out to be a liar by conspiracy theorists is almost unforgivable.

badger kitten this is really not on. No-one here has accused you of 'lying'. Neither have they implied it any way. Nor have they suggested that there was 'no bomb', an absurd proposition. You appear to be continually suggesting that this is the issue here, when it isn't.

I find this all deeply ironic given that you accused me of 'stirring' when I suggested that another trauma victim on these boards, who was indeed accused of lying, might just have been telling the truth.

 

[TeeJay]

As the bombing of the WTC in 1993 demonstrated it is not unknown for agents of western governments to actively support terrorists.

"demonstrated"?

Someone claims that the FBI was involved and to have tapes of conversations with his FBI handlers to prove it.

* Why should we believe this guy?
* Where are the tapes - can we hear them?

You don't apply the same level of scepticism everything do you? If the police or government says something you don't believe it. If someone makes a claim against the police or government you do believe it. Why is this?

 

[TeeJay]

badger kitten this is really not on. No-one here has accused you of 'lying'. Neither have they implied it any way. Nor have they suggested that there was 'no bomb', an absurd proposition. You appear to be continually suggesting that this is the issue here, when it isn't.

I find this all deeply ironic given that you accused me of 'stirring' when I suggested that another trauma victim on these boards, who was indeed accused of lying, might just have been telling the truth.

Oh just fuck off.

 

[sparticus]

"demonstrated"?

Someone claims that the FBI was involved and to have tapes of conversations with his FBI handlers to prove it.

* Why should we believe this guy?
* Where are the tapes - can we hear them?

You don't apply the same level of scepticism everything do you? If the police or government says something you don't believe it. If someone makes a claim against the police or government you do believe it. Why is this?

I try to take a bit more care than that. If you can show where I have been that sloppy I will acknowledge it, but I can't recall any one doing so.

This is just one example to demonstrate the point, but if you doubt my assertion why not do a little digging. The tape recordings made by FBI informant Mr Salem were presented in the subsequent court case and are part of the public record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emad_Salem) and reported in the media at the time of the case

 

[Kid_Eternity]

badger kitten this is really not on. No-one here has accused you of 'lying'. Neither have they implied it any way. Nor have they suggested that there was 'no bomb', an absurd proposition. You appear to be continually suggesting that this is the issue here, when it isn't.

I find this all deeply ironic given that you accused me of 'stirring' when I suggested that another trauma victim on these boards, who was indeed accused of lying, might just have been telling the truth.

Ok then if you're not calling her a liar how do you explain her (infinitely more credible) version of what happened compared to yours (a person with zero actual experience of what happened that day apart from lunatic websites)??

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Oh just fuck off.

I guess that would have been the easier option when it comes to answering his post...

 

[Jazzz]

Ok then if you're not calling her a liar how do you explain her (infinitely more credible) version of what happened compared to yours (a person with zero actual experience of what happened that day apart from lunatic websites)??

First of all, I don't claim to know what happened on 7/7. I don't have a 'version'.

I'm at a loss to understand this point. To 'lie' - an accusation which is really awful to bandy about, I take a hell of a lot of insults around here but to be accused of lying makes me want to arrange pistols at dawn - involves making statements which one knows to be untrue. If someone believes their statement, it cannot be a 'lie' - however truthful it is.

Moreover I believe every word of badger kitten's account of her experience on 7/7, but she didn't emerge from the train with the official narrative, we got that days later. Many accept it, such as bk; a minority does not. While we have freedom of thought in this country we are free to hold differences of opinion. You can believe differently to me with my blessing. I might think you are mistaken, as you me. That doesn't mean either of us is 'lying'.

 

[Prole]

According to Indycymru? It looks like *you* posted that there (the name matches your blog name).

edit: Oh I see - a footnote added underneath your post by the site owner saying "Note: We hear the bombed coaches have now been scrapped. Blair is determined that no independent forensics are done." but with no source, link or explanation of where they heard this information...

In fact it was picked up I suspect after Indymedia UK censored a post that had a link to my blog. Neither were written or posted with my knowledge. Indymedia UK

 

[Yossarian]

So Dr Jazzz thinks the 7th July bombings were part of some great big conspiracy? Now there's a fucking shocker...

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Hi Badger Kitten,

Thanks for your posts on here, it is good to hear directly from someone who experienced the event, rather than filtered through the media lens. I can understand your frustrations at people who have alternative theories to the "official" ones, but the 911 "narrative" is totally full of holes, and there is an obvious parallel with 911 and the London bombings.

I appreciate that you saw Germaine on your train, and saw the aftermath of the explosion, however I find great difficulty believing that four young British men with young families would blow themselves and others up deliberately. Can I ask whether you think that there is any doubt that Germaine detonated the device.

There is no question that the g'ment have lied when it was in their interests, and the investigation into "terrorists" would be laughable if it were not so serious. The government have tried people on terrorist offences on the flimsiest of evidence (a sock, a tourist map, a piece of paper with scribbles found in a former residence), they have introduced internment for anyone they dont like very much and they have arrested people on terrorist offences for reading out a list of dead soldiers names, all supposedly to prevent another terrorist atrocity.

I have signed your petition, and I think that we need a full public enquiry - which covers not only the response of the emergency services but also what actually happened, because I just dont believe (and I'm sorry if this offends you) that young British men, with a bog-standard western upbringing and little direct contact with the worst aspects of British imperialism, with wives, children, friends and parents all of whom would be strongly negatively impacted by their actions, would blow up themselves and their fellow citizens in such an ultimately futile gesture.

There is a conspiracy around 7/7 - the official conspiracy is that four young British men decided to blow themselves and others up for reasons unknown. I'd like to see the evidence for that conspiracy and I'm sure that the families and friends of these young men would as well, one dodgy video does not a suicide bomber make.

Interestingly the fact that this happened slap bang in the middle of the G8 has now been totally forgotten, presumably not relevant, so why then...of all the days they could have chosen, why choose the day of some of the biggest protests seen in Britain since the run up to the Iraq war.

 

[Jazzz]

Nice post qwerty but just to clarify, badger kitten hasn't personally claimed to have identified Germaine Lindsay, she reports another survivor in her carriage has.

 

[TAE]

I just want to say one thing about inconsistencies. You will always get them.

Ask any number of people who've been to a demo which has turned ugly and look at the details, you'll get lots of different conflicting stories which don't make sense. Humans don't store information like a computer would, we interpret calculate, think ahead, try to figure out what may or may not be happening, especially in stressful threatning situations.

 

[pk]

Can't see why this insensitive unsubstantiated bullshit speculation hasn't been deleted from these boards yet.

Look at the main protagonists - Jazzz and Sparticus, for fucks sakes.

It's obviously going to be a load of lies leading back to the inevitable anti-semitic groups known for spreading this kind of crap, same as it has been every single time before.

Particularly nasty as it involves attempting to dismantle the accounts from people WHO WERE ACTUALLY THERE!

Fuck off, no platform for thinly veiled anti-semitic bollocks.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

How can you say 'for reasons unknown' when we have Mohammad Siddique Khan's own video message explaining precisely why they did it? (e.g. Iraq)

link

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Mr Blair, citing Khan's video message broadcast after the July bombings, said any "sense of grievance" about UK policy in Iraq was not justified.

Bomber's case 'rubbish' - Blair

Now as far as I can see, the government have every reason to wish this would all go away, or to see it dissolved in a mess of confusion and conspiracy theory.

The simple explanation is by far the more damaging for Blair and his cronies. By getting us involved in an illegal war in Iraq, they created conditions where british citizens started blowing each other up on the tube.

 

[Prole]

Particularly nasty as it involves attempting to dismantle the accounts from people WHO WERE ACTUALLY THERE!

Fuck off, no platform for thinly veiled anti-semitic bollocks.

As a member for just over 36 hours, I haven't read any attempts to dismantle accounts from people who were there, in fact, no one I have read doubts that there were explosions on trains that day. Neither have I read anything that could be construed as anti-semetic.
What I have read is almost hysterical abuse at anyone who questions the official narrative.

 

[TAE]

The simple explanation is by far the more damaging for Blair and his cronies. By getting us involved in an illegal war in Iraq, they created conditions where british citizens started blowing each other up on the tube.

Well said.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Thanks for your posts on here, it is good to hear directly from someone who experienced the event, rather than filtered through the media lens.

The media are just reporting what happened as best they can, with access to a lot more witnesses and more fact checking than the theorist non-journos can.

I can understand your frustrations at people who have alternative theories to the "official" ones,

No , I don't think you can, actually, I am frustrated by for example the fact that I have seen my eye witness account of a bomb in my carriage quoted by a conspiracy theorist on his website who then twisted it to claim there were no bombs. Forgive me while I throw up in disgust. And lose patience with the lot of you. My ''official version'' is based on not only the media I have read/seen but witness conversations with the 90 survivors in my group, the train driver, the first police officers on the scene. That makes it not the official version, but the truth as far as I can test it, which is a lot furhter than yours. Show me your first hand witnesses. You have none. Therefore, I don't take your clearly -poilitically motivated conspraloon allegations seriously....

but the 911 "narrative" is totally full of holes, and there is an obvious parallel with 911 and the London bombings.

Ha! See! Politically motivated! *headesk*You just said it! They were different events! Why is there an ''obvious parallel''? Yet you try to make them the same! There is no obvious parallel at all except in your fevered mind!

I appreciate that you saw Germaine on your train, and saw the aftermath of the explosion, however

No, Jamie saw him, I can't be sure.l I was 7 feet away and the carriage was crowded. I did, yes, however, the conspiracy aftermath...

I find great difficulty believing that four young British men with young families would blow themselves and others up deliberately

Ladies and gentlemen, the heart of the matter. I am sorry that you find it hard but it's even harder to beleive first hand. Grow up and deal with the truth, however painful it is, you were spared from the direct consequences. It wasn't Psy-ops or Mossad or liazards or Blairor anyone you feel safe hating. It was worse - it was young hatefilled men. Like you. Like any of us.

I really do think conspiracy theorists would prefer to live in the cosy world of a Le Carre novel or a Sci Fi book than deal with the heart-breaking truth.

Can I ask whether you think that there is any doubt that Germaine detonated the device.

I do not think there is any doubt, no. And yes, it breaks my heart.

There is no question that the g'ment have lied when it was in their interests,

yes, they have, show me a politicain who hasn't -

and the investigation into "terrorists" would be laughable if it were not so serious

what's that supposed to mean? .

The government have tried people on terrorist offences on the flimsiest of evidence (a sock, a tourist map, a piece of paper with scribbles found in a former residence),

true, but you miss the point

they have introduced internment for anyone they dont like very much

kind of true,

and they have arrested people on terrorist offences for reading out a list of dead soldiers names, all supposedly to prevent another terrorist atrocity.

yes, and watch me get arrested for protesting about that on Wednesday

I have signed your petition, and I think that we need a full public enquiry -

cheers

which covers not only the response of the emergency services but also what actually happened,

we know what happened, we're interested in why and sorting out the response and the aftermath

because I just dont believe (and I'm sorry if this offends you) that young British men, with a bog-standard western upbringing and little direct contact with the worst aspects of British imperialism, with wives, children, friends and parents all of whom would be strongly negatively impacted by their actions, would blow up themselves and their fellow citizens in such an ultimately futile gesture.

Ha, here we go again. It is the horrible and terrible truth, and I'd love not to live in a world where it wasn't true.

There is a conspiracy around 7/7

yeah, so we see

- the official conspiracy is that four young British men decided to blow themselves and others up for reasons unknown. I'd like to see the evidence for that conspiracy and I'm sure that the families and friends of these young men would as well, one dodgy video does not a suicide bomber make.

Yes but DNA evidence, video testimony, extremism, computer records, ideaologies and poisonous hatred does

Interestingly the fact that this happened slap bang in the middle of the G8 has now been totally forgotten,

What?// It's a major factor! Everyone knowes that was a reason why it was selected as a date/target! WTF are you on about!

presumably not relevant

eh?

,

so why then...of all the days they could have chosen, why choose the day of some of the biggest protests seen in Britain since the run up to the Iraq war.

*headesk*

I think you have answered your own question there, sonny. Jeee-sus.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

How can you say 'for reasons unknown' when we have Mohammad Siddique Khan's own video message explaining precisely why they did it? (e.g. Iraq)

link

Huh?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1762124,00.html
He doesnt mention Iraq once.

Certainly it is spliced with references to Iraq, Afganistan and the London bombings, but he himself makes only oblique statements.

Even supposing its real and was intended to be shown after the bombings which he knew about and planned/agreed to there are very real questions about what was behind him, none of which has ever really come to light. Micheal Meacher (former environment minister) thinks that there is a good chance that it might not

'Whether the hunt for those behind the London bombers can prevail against these powerful political forces remains to be seen. Indeed it may depend on whether Scotland Yard, in its attempts to uncover the truth, can prevail over MI6, which is trying to cover its tracks and in practice has every opportunity to operate beyond the law under the cover of national security.'
MM - Guardian, September 10th

 

[editor]

I find this all deeply ironic given that you accused me of 'stirring' when I suggested that another trauma victim on these boards, who was indeed accused of lying, might just have been telling the truth.

I see that the fact that you've been repeatedly been told that you don't know the full story behind that particular COMPLETELY UNRELATED story hasn't stop you rustling up another of your exciting "what really happened' fantasies.

Or do you think all the mods were "in on it" too?

 

[brixtonvilla]

"I find great difficulty believing that four young British men with young families would blow themselves and others up deliberately."

Why, exactly?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What other examples of UK foreign policy oppressing Muslims might he have been talking about do you think?

 

[editor]

I appreciate that you saw Germaine on your train, and saw the aftermath of the explosion, however I find great difficulty believing that four young British men with young families would blow themselves and others up deliberately.

Right. So who blew themselves up then?

Or were London Underground in on it too?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

...I am frustrated by for example the fact that I have seen my eye witness account of a bomb in my carriage quoted by a conspiracy theorist on his website who then twisted it to claim there were no bombs. Forgive me while I throw up in disgust.

I can understand it.. there were certainly explosions and bombs are certainly the most plausible explaination

...And lose patience with the lot of you. My ''official version'' is based on not only the media I have read/seen but witness conversations with the 90 survivors in my group, the train driver, the first police officers on the scene. That makes it not the official version, but the truth as far as I can test it, which is a lot furhter than yours. Show me your first hand witnesses. You have none. Therefore, I don't take your clearly -poilitically motivated conspraloon allegations seriously....

Nope you're right, I have no first hand evidence that those men did not deliberately blow up that train, but then, with all due respect, neither do you. I can agree with you up to the point of the men being there, the bombs being in their possession and the bombs being detonated, but not that they themselves detonated them and if they did that it was intentional.

...Ha! See! Politically motivated! *headesk*You just said it! They were different events! Why is there an ''obvious parallel''? Yet you try to make them the same! There is no obvious parallel at all except in your fevered mind!

The most obvious parallel is that they are attacks on civilians of western powers attributed to Al-Quada and linked with Osama Bin Laden.

...No, Jamie saw him, I can't be sure.

Sorry, misunderstood your post

...Ladies and gentlemen, the heart of the matter. I am sorry that you find it hard but it's even harder to beleive first hand. Grow up and deal with the truth, however painful it is, you were spared from the direct consequences. It wasn't Psy-ops or Mossad or liazards or Blairor anyone you feel safe hating. It was worse - it was young hatefilled men. Like you. Like any of us.

Why? Why did they not just drop their rucksacks off and make a run for it? Why did the IRA never do suicide bombings? Members of the IRA had far more personal experiences of British terrorism, and some of them had far less to lose.

what's that supposed to mean? .

Take for example the ricin plot
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050413-poison-plot.htm (article from Newsweek)
or the sock bomber
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1986752005
He got FIFTEEN YEARS for a piece of paper in a video case in the house of his estranged wife which was apparently a code for terrorism and a notebook of instructions of how to aim and fire a mortar. He was found innocent of the sock charge. Is this the best evidence that they can muster?

...we know what happened, we're interested in why and sorting out the response and the aftermath

I don;t know what happened. I know there were bombs which went off in carriages on the underground and on a bus, but I dont know who detonated them, who made them, who produced the video, who did the logistics...

...Ha, here we go again. It is the horrible and terrible truth, and I'd love not to live in a world where it wasn't true.

Western governments routinely bomb civilians, and gift explosives to people knowing that they will use them against civilians. I would like to live in a world where that wasnt true.

...Yes but DNA evidence, video testimony, extremism, computer records, ideaologies and poisonous hatred does

DNA evidence only proves that they were there and killed in the bombs, the video proves that Kahn was angry about the West's continuing mass murder of civilians, I havent seen any evidence of computer records, although it might well exist, and extremism, ideology and posionous hatred are pure supposition, and not in line with any of the people who knew them.

...What?// It's a major factor! Everyone knowes that was a reason why it was selected as a date/target! WTF are you on about!

Why is it never mentioned in the coverage?

 

[editor]

Why? Why did they not just drop their rucksacks off and make a run for it?

Can you really not think of an answer to that?

Why did the IRA never do suicide bombings? Members of the IRA had far more personal experiences of British terrorism,

Completely and totally 100% irrelevant.

Any chance of you answering my earlier question, btw?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Wow, i've missed eight pages of this twaddle already! Can i get a brief summary of the story so far?