Democratic? No public enquiry on the 7/7 bombings.

[Bob_the_lost]

...According to many on Urban75 this makes me a conspiraloon a fuckwit a truth seeker and worse.

You're a tory voting fuckwit conspiraloon!?!?

 

[Prole]

You're a tory voting fuckwit conspiraloon!?!?

nice one but the abuse hadn't been that bad

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Look, we have little patience here for unsupported claims, there may be minor discrepancies in the BBC account, but that's the only thing that doesn't ring true and those may be due to a simple reporting cockup.

Return tickes = What you get if you're planning on taking the tube, you get a travelcard as part of the deal meaning you wouldn't have to buy another ticket when you got into london, safer that way.

I won't read this entire thread but the short version is that the offical line is far, far more belivable. There is nothing to make me doubt it, there is plenty to support it, there is no reason whatso ever for wasting public money on some witch hunt that would just be labeld a whitewash anyway.

IF you have a list of other facts that lead you to belive that the offical line is false, list them, number them and we'll address them. Otherwise this thread does not serve any purpose at all and should be binned forthwith!

 

[TAE]

I can only examine the facts, as I say, only the truth stands up to rigorous investigation. Isn't that how we make up our own minds?

Yes, facts, which really is just an english word for "what most people agree on".

I can see two facts:
1. Those four were in Luton at the time indicated by the CCTV image.
2. Those four were on the tube trains/bus which exploded.

Are we in agreement about these?

 

[detective-boy]

What is then?

It is a collection of bits released officially for various reasons (e.g. searching for witnesses), bits found by the media direct (and verified to varying degrees), bits leaked by various sources at various times and God only knows what else.

What it is NOT is a complete, coherent summary of all the evidence available so far. That is why the government are suggesting that the first step should be the compilation of an official narrative, which hopefully will be such a summary. Once that is available publicly then we can start to look whether or not there are sufficient unanswered questions to merit the expense of a public enquiry.

Oh, and by the way, just because it is on the BBC website does NOT mean that it is an "official" account - all it is is a BBC journos version of what happened.

 

[detective-boy]

Is that official enough?

Er ... no. Because without the question it is the answer to it is fucking meaningless. You really, really, really are fucking stupid aren't you?

 

[detective-boy]

Yes, facts, which really is just an english word for "what most people agree on".

No. Facts are fucking facts. Capable of independent verification. Whether or not everyone agrees on them is irrelevant.

 

[Prole]

Er ... no. Because without the question it is the answer to it is fucking meaningless.

I've already said what the question was

You really, really, really are fucking stupid aren't you?

I'll add that to the list

 

[Prole]

Yes, facts, which really is just an english word for "what most people agree on".

I can see two facts:
1. Those four were in Luton at the time indicated by the CCTV image.
2. Those four were on the tube trains/bus which exploded.

Are we in agreement about these?

Facts are objective, 'what most people agree on' is subjective, there's a big difference.
We have yet to see any CCTV images from platforms, trains or stations from July 7th. We have these images for the so-called rehearsal on June 28th and the non-events of July 21st. Why haven't these images been released?

 

[TAE]

No. Facts are fucking facts. Capable of independent verification. Whether or not everyone agrees on them is irrelevant.

Of course, but in practice something is only called a fact if most people agree on it.

 

[TAE]

Facts are objective, 'what most people agree on' is subjective, there's a big difference.

Do you agree that points 1 and 2 in my post are facts, or not?

 

[editor]

mmm maybe perhaps who knows, although if you check what he did write he answered all my points in great detail. The part I posted was the part where he evaded answering 'what time did the train leave Luton that morning'.

So if your claims that the train timetable doesn't match up is correct, there must be, what, thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who also know this too, yes?

So how come they're not speaking up?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Of course, but in practice something is only called a fact if most people agree on it.

Not really, a fact is something that is possible to prove.

The definition is more complex than that, search for it in phillosophy and you'll find acres on it, but in short it's got to be provable to be a fact.

I did ask for a list of points that you disagree with the offical line on.

 

[detective-boy]

I've already said what the question was

Yeah ... 'what time did the train leave Luton that morning'

STILL fucking meaningless. Which train? What was the format and basis of your request? FoI? Was there any reference in the response to there being a relevant exception to the statutory requirements? And, in any event, the quote you provided does NOT say that the account on the BBC website is the "official narrative" anyway. It only says that the BBC website gives the "broad information" you sought concerning "what time did the train leave Luton that morning". Simply that. Nothing else.

 

[TAE]

Let's not derail this thread any more.

What I really meant was that I am quite convinced that the four bombers were in Luton at the specified time and was asking if anyone disagrees with that statement.

 

[TeeJay]

Have any of these "truth movement" people actually bothered trying to find other people who were travelling from Luton at the same time?

If Luton is like other major stations in the south-east there must have been at least a hundred - probably more - people who were at the station and trying to get into London at that time.

Surely a bit of basic research - for example hanging around Luton station and asking the commuters if they had travelled to London on the morning of 7/7 - would be able to establish what time the trains departed and arrived in London. You might even talk to people who had seen the four men, and be able to say which train they were on.

I get the feeling that the "truth movement" people are not really interested in doing this and that even if they did go out and interview people they wouldn't actually bother reporting anything unless it added support to their wackjob 'black ops' theories. I get the impression that they deliberately *avoid* investigating things that would disprove their crap and if they do find stuff they just ignore it, or say that people have been fooled into repeating the 'official lies'.

Just to pre-empt their response, which will probably be "well if it is so easy then why don't you go and find these witnesses and prove when the trains left and that these men were on them?". My answer is that I don't spend my life rushing around after wackjobs trying to disprove whatever bollocks they have just invented. If I want to put forward a theory of my own then I go and find the evidence to support it. As it is, there is video of the men entering Luton station and video of them at King's Cross. I have no reason to think that the Metropolitan police somehow invented, created or falsified this video footage or are otherwise lying about it - not least because it would be crazy to 'invent' footage of places and times where a vast number of members of the public actually were present at the time.

 

[Yossarian]

I know conspiracy theorists like to imagine themselves cleverer than everybody around them, fearless truth-seekers with the imagination to join the dots together, but the way they're waving around train timetables like they were Moses coming down from the mountain with the fucking stone tablets is a pitiful new low.

 

[dylanredefined]

rlch! when has it been a tradtional military model if you dont have an extraction plan not to tell the unit so they keep fighting ?
Have you not heard of last stands ? Dying for the cause is considred
a noble thing in most cultures .Why bother trying to build a timer system
when you have a motivated marytr eager to go to paradise .

 

[Prole]

editor: So if your claims that the train timetable doesn't match up is correct, there must be, what, thousands, if not tens of thousands of people who also know this too, yes?

It isn't a 'claim', the times we have been told that they travelled have been proved to be false.
Why no cctv images of them at Kings X, the Metropolitan police claimed they had pictures of them together at Kings X at 8.30.
Where are the images from the platforms or the trains? If you don't require proof then that's your choice. I would have thought it would have been one of the reasons for why there needs to be an independent inquiry into what really happened that day.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

It isn't a 'claim', the times we have been told that they travelled have been proved to be false.
Why no cctv images of them at Kings X, the Metropolitan police claimed they had pictures of them together at Kings X at 8.30.
Where are the images from the platforms or the trains? If you don't require proof then that's your choice. I would have thought it would have been one of the reasons for why there needs to be an independent inquiry into what really happened that day.

Have you thought for one second there might be actual sane reasons (not involving lizards) for those type of images not being flooded into the public domain?

 

[Prole]

Teejay: Surely a bit of basic research - for example hanging around Luton station and asking the commuters if they had travelled to London on the morning of 7/7 - would be able to establish what time the trains departed and arrived in London. You might even talk to people who had seen the four men, and be able to say which train they were on.

Which is exactly what the reporter from the Daily Telegraph did: If only we had been alert, say regulars on 7:48 to King's Cross Luton
By Amy Iggulden
(Filed: 14/07/2005)
Telegraph
I haven't found a single report of anyone seeing these men on that day on a train from Luton.

 

[TAE]

I can see two facts:
1. Those four were in Luton at the time indicated by the CCTV image.
2. Those four were on the tube trains/bus which exploded.

Are we in agreement about these?

Well?

 

[Prole]

Have you thought for one second there might be actual sane reasons (not involving lizards) for those type of images not being flooded into the public domain?

Such as?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Such as?

Don't play fucking games, answer the question.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Such as?

No need to release them for a start.

 

[Prole]

Well?

There has been one grainy image of 4 men entering Luton station which contrasts poorly to the image from the so-called rehearsal on the 28/6.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

In the real world...

everybody who has ever relied on public transport, including trains, knows that the trains that run often bear only passing resemblance to officially admitted timetables. Therefore, making that the basis of any critique of official positions is rather weak.

Incontrovertible facts seem to include

1) The govts foreign policy, which outrages many, including Muslims.

2) The fact that the bombers do seem to have been carrying bombs, no matter how they got to London, they did eventually get there.

3) The bombers cannot have imagined they were doing anything else that makes sense (eg transporting copies of the Koran?), inasmuch as you cannot 'forget' you have a rucksack, can you?

4) Spook foreknowledge of at least two bombers as of interest.

Now, there is legitimate scope for questioning aspects of the official account, including whether the bombers did (or did not) know an MI6 asset. But to leap from that to imply these people were just patsies is not just untrue, but insultingly patronising--for these people believed in something enough to face certain death for it, a fact that cannot be gainsaid. I find it rather interesting that those who get so worked up about this episode have never shown the slightest interest in MI5/SB complicity in the 1999 Soho nail-bombing for example, a still open case as far as I'm concerned. Also, interestingly enough, those agitated about 7/7 do not seem to have anything useful to contribute concerning spook dirty tricks in Ulster either. It would be tempting to see these types as more interested in the X Files, but even that wouldn't be true--as the real life British X Files case (involving Tim Hepple/Matthews) or indeed the more recent fitting up of Ufologist Max Burns that includes a cameo role from two Fortean Times regulars doesn't interest them either.

In the end, perhaps many into 7/7 so much are so exercised by it because it is yet another example of UK subordination to the US culturally & politically. In other words if the US has its 9/11 conspiracy (a matter I'm still looking into) their Brit junior partner conspiracy theorists must needs produce their own equivalent (7/7). How very tedious, & sad.

 

[editor]

I haven't found a single report of anyone seeing these men on that day on a train from Luton.

And that proves... nothing. Zip.

So what do you think really happened then?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Larry: I hope i don't reopen the slowly closing floodgates here, but could you elaborate on point 4 for me, i thought the only stuff on this was the isralli embassy stuff that was agreed on (by most) to be rubbish.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Shall we start a new thread? Post your theories about what happened on 7th July here. And back them up with some sort of sense.

I don't mean ask questions, I mean, provide evidence and explain why you think what you think. And explain exactly why the version everyone else accepts is not good enough.