Dealing With the Renegades - Revisited

[Bernie Gunther]

Accepting for a moment that such lumpen elements are a factor in our communities, what role did they have in the riots? Do we have any factual information on this yet?

What LLETSA was saying about the wanker mugging that Malaysian student and what smokedout just said about his local criminal families is instantly recognisable to me too, so I'm certainly not arguing that there's nothing there.

I'm also very aware that such elements are featuring prominently in media narratives about recent events.

What actual evidence do we have regarding their role in the recent rioting and looting though?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that such elements played a role, but I'm unclear personally exactly what it was in practice and how it may have differed in the various stages that the rioting seems to have gone through from the kick-off to the spreading chaos as last week wore on.

 

[Blagsta]

presumingly your issue is more to do with the use of the term willingly (as opposed to embraced - as i don't think anyone can disagree there has been an embracement)

to take the view however that people unwillingly embrace the kind of tendencies referred to in the article smacks of a crude kind of economic determinism which robs the working class, both as individuals and collectively as a class, of the agency and potential to be the active subject that is required if any kind of progressive alternative to capitalism is ever to be achieved

Instead it leaves them as passive objects, conditioned totally by factors external to them, destined to behave & act in a particular predetermined way, like some kind of secular predestination. While socio-economic factors clearly cannot be ignored and form a fundamental part of any analysis - to go too far the other way to the kind of crude determinism that some lefties come out with further consigns an already weakened, demolarised, emaciated, confidence sapped, working class further, as it robs the class of its ability to actually be the class for itself. It's only the crude kind of vulargised marxism that allows us to think that all that's needed is to turn capitalism on, sit back and await the glorious proletarian revolution and emancipation of the working class, like some kind of determined chemical reaction

What I actually meant was that some will have willingly embraced, but others will be more reluctant and others may just be blindly following. I think to attribute one cause or motive to everyone is naive.

 

[London_Calling]

Accepting for a moment that such lumpen elements are a factor in our communities, what role did they have in the riots? Do we have any factual information on this yet?

What LLETSA was saying about the wanker mugging that Malaysian student and what smokedout just said about his local criminal families is instantly recognisable to me too, so I'm certainly not arguing that there's nothing there.

I'm also very aware that such elements are featuring prominently in media narratives about recent events.

What actual evidence do we have regarding their role in the recent rioting and looting though?

I'm perfectly willing to believe that such elements played a role, but I'm unclear personally exactly what it was in practice and how it may have differed in the various stages that the rioting seems to have gone through from the kick-off to the spreading chaos as last week wore on.

Fwiw, my view atm is that yer lumpen element was instrumental in it kicking off on each of the three nights in London, but on each night their role subsequent to that initiation diminished quickly as other elements anticipated what would happen and were ready to take advantage.

Events needed the spark they provided though.

Obv. one of the keys in relation to the gangs was/is their organisation, esp. the ability to communicate the where and when, even as that changed in real time.

 

[Brainaddict]

I've definitely embraced a non-work ethic but I'm middle class so I think I'm allowed

 

[love detective]

What I actually meant was that some will have willingly embraced, but others will be more reluctant and others may just be blindly following. I think to attribute one cause or motive to everyone is naive.

perhaps - one thing for sure however is that the existence of those within that formation who have willingly embraced it, and also have the ability to draw & attract others into 'blindly or reluctantly following' them are a corrosive, poisonous & debilitating element and one that will not be challenged, checked, or reversed by refusing to accept its existence, by seeking to explain it away by deterministic accounts of agency, or by underestimating the detrimental effect that it has on the potential for a confident pro-working class politics to emerge out of the current malaise

 

[Brainaddict]

perhaps - one thing for sure however is that the existence of those within that formation who have willingly embraced it, and also have the ability to draw & attract others into 'blindly or reluctantly following' them are a corrosive, poisonous & debilitating element and one that will not be challenged, checked, or reversed by refusing to accept its existence, by seeking to explain it away by deterministic accounts of agency, or by underestimating the detrimental effect that it has on the potential for a confident pro-working class politics to emerge out of the current malaise

All you see is the negative man. Watch this and take heart

 

[Blagsta]

perhaps - one thing for sure however is that the existence of those within that formation who have willingly embraced it, and also have the ability to draw & attract others into 'blindly or reluctantly following' them are a corrosive, poisonous & debilitating element and one that will not be challenged, checked, or reversed by refusing to accept its existence, by seeking to explain it away by deterministic accounts of agency, or by underestimating the detrimental effect that it has on the potential for a confident pro-working class politics to emerge out of the current malaise

You're the only one I can see mentioning determinism.

 

[Blagsta]

It's worth remembering the effects that childhood abuse and neglect can have on the development of morality and empathy (and no, I'm not saying all rioters/looters/muggers were abused as children, before anyone starts).

 

[smokedout]

i think there is a danger here that people are also jumping into a blanket condemnation of what happened, which i'm not sure i can share. there seems to be an element developing amongst some sections of the left that rioting's only ok when we do it, because our reasons and tactics are purer than theirs. we don't know why many people were out rioting but certainly almost all the kids that have been given airtime have spoken of the government, the police and cuts and a feeling of enough is enough. if there was co-ordination by london street gangs, then to what end? are we not just second guessing their motives and falling into a simplistic narrative that they can't possibly of had valid grievances cos they is criminals and shit.

that doesnt mean i condone burning out people's flats, but i didnt condone the act of the fire extinguisher chucker either, that doesnt mean he doesnt have my solidarity. if that fire extinguisher had killed a copper, or god forbid a person, then we'd be facing exactly the same kind of witchhunt and blanket condemnation that the kids are now. this was disorder on an unprecedented scale, of course some people used that as a cover for entirely criminal and reactionary acts, acts that happen everyday without the need for a riot. but i dont have a problem with the kids who looted argos round my way, good on them, people have got fuck all round here, and im not prepared to second guess their motives which i suspect were slightly more complex than just a desire for a wide screen telly.

 

[butchersapron]

The OP isn't about the riots though. It's about ongoing political organisation in areas with large scale ASB and how we - and i mean we - should and can respond.

 

[Brainaddict]

i think there is a danger here that people are also jumping into a blanket condemnation of what happened, which i'm not sure i can share. there seems to be an element developing amongst some sections of the left that rioting's only ok when we do it, because our reasons and tactics are purer than theirs. we don't know why many people were out rioting but certainly almost all the kids that have been given airtime have spoken of the government, the police and cuts and a feeling of enough is enough. if there was co-ordination by london street gangs, then to what end? are we not just second guessing their motives and falling into a simplistic narrative that they can't possibly of had valid grievances cos they is criminals and shit.

that doesnt mean i condone burning out people's flats, but i didnt condone the act of the fire extinguisher chucker either, that doesnt mean he doesnt have my solidarity. if that fire extinguisher had killed a copper, or god forbid a person, then we'd be facing exactly the same kind of witchhunt and blanket condemnation that the kids are now. this was disorder on an unprecedented scale, of course some people used that as a cover for entirely criminal and reactionary acts, acts that happen everyday without the need for a riot. but i dont have a problem with the kids who looted argos round my way, good on them, people have got fuck all round here, and im not prepared to second guess their motives which i suspect were slightly more complex than just a desire for a wide screen telly.

I hesitate to offer my support, sullied as it is by an allegedly liberal dislike of moralising ( ) but I agree with this post.

 

[smokedout]

The OP isn't about the riots though. It's about ongoing political organisation in areas with large scale ASB and how we - and i mean we - should and can respond.

i know, i was going to start a thread called in defence of rioters but i couldnt be arsed with all the general posters steaming in with a load of wank

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This really is an issue that has divided people along different lines from usual, I think. Generally, I've found myself nodding in agreement with smokedout on this thread, but it seems that there's still no consensus at all about the best way to try to understand these riots. We're all groping in the dark a little, I think.

 

[LLETSA]

you just did it yourself. there was a well known family who had a couple of clubs where i grew up. they beat and tortured people, i dont know if they ever murdered anyone but do know they were the people you went to to buy a gun. sometimes they beat people up for business, sometimes they did it because one of the younger ones was pissed and someone looked at his pint. i could say the same about certain families in london, i could even name names, but i wont, because im scared of them.

Nothing I said has romanticised anybody or anything. I haven't denied that these kind of people are nasty fuckers; I said that when they murdered people it wasn't usually over relative trivialities.

 

[love detective]

You're the only one I can see mentioning determinism.

I'm the only one using the word determinism yes

 

[Geri]

i know, i was going to start a thread called in defence of rioters but i couldnt be arsed with all the general posters steaming in with a load of wank

Oh no, not the general posters.

 

[LLETSA]

The OP isn't about the riots though. It's about ongoing political organisation in areas with large scale ASB and how we - and i mean we - should and can respond.

And as usual, smokedout is arguing against not what people have said but what he wants them to have said.

 

[likesfish]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/p...r-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

he argues that the same problem is occurring at the top although the people breaking the rules can usually avoid breaking the law tellingly millionaires daughter gets to go home proles in the car go to jail.

 

[love detective]

All you see is the negative man. Watch this and take heart

i think there is a danger here that people are also jumping into a blanket condemnation of what happened, which i'm not sure i can share.

Again, am I reading the same thread as youse

Here what i said about the riots (which as butchersapron has pointed out was not the subject of this thread) on the first page of this thread

it's no surprise that riots in a neo-liberalised society take on a neo-liberal form themselves

while it might be energising/liberating to see the police being so effectively sidelined and shown to be powerless in the face of a mass (albeit of atomised individuals) who share a common purpose - is there anything else positive that can be taken from what's happened, personally I'm struggling​

as the logic & motivations of the riots seem to be derived from the very same logic & motivations of the society that 'produced' them, there doesn't seem to be much there to actually threaten or dent the foundational basis of the system that they are supposedly reacting against. sure we can all go on about how looters are bypassing & causing ruptures to the normal circuits and flows of capital, but that in and off itself doesn't mean there's anything progressive about it - organised crime does the same thing to an extent and no one sees anything liberating or progressive about that​

at least in the past, forms of protest and revolt against the system emerged and had some kind of life span before they were eventually recouperated by capital, but this kind of thing doesn't even need to be recouperated as its starting point is already squarely in the individualist neo-liberalising camp already. Even looters themselves were being robbed of their gear (I saw this myself at the back of the argo warehouse in catford) - no sign of even a collective solidarity amongst the looters. What basis is that to genuinely hold the kind of optimism that some on the left seem to be getting from this - the only thing to come from this will be to further bolster the confidence of the lumpen elements that are already making life a misery for a large element of the working class proper. The notion that lefty (by having 'street meetings') can somehow harness and direct this towards something more progressive is absurd​

fair enough any kind of riot or disturbance is going to be a messy complicated affair and you can't hold out for a perfect/textbook reaction to capital/the state - but all this seems to do is to further shine an already bright light on the complete & utter failure of any kind of progressive/radical alternative to what's happening to our society​

But no point folk actually engaging with what's actually said is there​

 

[Brainaddict]

The OP contained the phrase 'In light of recent events' and suddenly people claim this thread has nothing to do with the rioting? The implication was that the riots had proved the existence of a sinister underclass undermining the class struggle and how can we stand by any longer and let them continue.

 

[butchersapron]

The OP contained the phrase 'In light of recent events' and suddenly people claim this thread has nothing to do with the rioting? The implication was that the riots had proved the existence of a sinister underclass undermining the class struggle and how can we stand by any longer and let them continue.

The riots certainly provided the context for the repost - it wasn't arguing about the riots. It's by def a pre-riot argument. It's about the build up to the riots.

Look, i know you're all hey i'm this revolutionary now man, but please read what people have said.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I read the op as an attempt to understand the riots, to try to understand who was rioting, why they were rioting and what could be done about it. That's been the basis of all my responses.

 

[butchersapron]

Then you've misread it - it's about how you organise as pro-w/c group in areas with high levels of ASB. What you face, and why.

I'm not fucking kidding, but it pretty much says that in the article. Have any other people on the thread not bothered to read it? We caught brain addict when he mentioned non-work ethic earlier. Any other commentators not read it?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Then you've misread it - it's about how you organise as pro-w/c group in areas with high levels of ASB. What you face, and why.

Ok. I did actually get that too. And have been trying to talk about it - and talking about drug laws wrt gangs who deal in drugs is relevant I think. But all this feels as though it is in the context of last week's events. That's why it is being revisited.

Seems to me that the thread has meandered along in a good way...

 

[smokedout]

Again, am I reading the same thread as youse

Here what i said about the riots (which as butchersapron has pointed out was not the subject of this thread) on the first page of this thread

ok i should probably have started a new thread. but the confusion reveals a flaw in the piece you posted, which is what exactly is anti-social behaviour. are we talking about crime, rioting, gangs, loud music, until we can find a consensus on what asb actually is (and its a a phrase i cant stand) then we cant begin to discuss any hopes of remedying it

 

[LLETSA]

ok i should probably have started a new thread. but the confusion reveals a flaw in the piece you posted, which is what exactly is anti-social behaviour. are we talking about crime, rioting, gangs, loud music, until we can find a consensus on what asb actually is (and its a a phrase i cant stand) then we cant begin to discuss any hopes of remedying it

If you don't know what anti-social behaviour is, you've probably never experienced it.

 

[smokedout]

If you don't know what anti-social behaviour is, you've probably never experienced it.

you see thats just garbage, ive been slashed with a knife across my throat, does that count, or is that crime and are they the same or different

if you asked 20 people what asb is you'll get 20 different answers, perhaps the first step is to start the debate in our communities about exactly what we will and wont accept

 

[butchersapron]

you see thats just garbage, ive been slashed with a knife across my throat, does that count, or is that crime and are they the same or different

if you asked 20 people what asb is you'll get 20 different answers, perhaps the first step is to start the debate in our communities about exactly what we will and wont accept

Exactly what the malik piece was on about earlier. Making it OUR definitions of morality/behavior/etc.

LLETSA, at the min please assume that other people have similar conditions if they say they have. If they don't it'll become clear pretty quick.

 

[LLETSA]

you see thats just garbage, ive been slashed with a knife across my throat, does that count, or is that crime and are they the same or different

if you asked 20 people what asb is you'll get 20 different answers, perhaps the first step is to start the debate in our communities about exactly what we will and wont accept

Being slashed across the throat with a knife sounds pretty anti-social to me.

 

[LLETSA]

LLETSA, at the min please assume that other people have similar conditions if they say they have. If they don't it'll become clear pretty quick.

Eh?