David Starkey On Newsnight....

[LLETSA]

What's the point? I'd get more sense from a brick wall.

You say 'sour grapes' with reference to nothing and then 'What's the point?' when this reference to nothing is pointed out. And you say I make no sense.

 

[LLETSA]

Is it fuck. You just don't like the idea that you're wrong. Now be a good lad and find another thread.

I might now that King Idiot has come on.

 

[LLETSA]

No, but it is EIGHT TIMES BIGGER than any other city, it was effectively where post-WW2 multi-cultural and multi-ethnic society started, and is still its' most prominent and obvious example.
Like it or not, London is simply more significant - in practically every way, in fact - than anywhere else in the UK.

Then not only are you very wrong, but just about everyone within a 5 mile radius of me would be utterly astounded at such an assertion. 'streetslang' dialect is simply by now something the kids pick up from their environment, and everyone around them, and is therefore - to w/c big city youth - a natural part of their linguistic armoury, how they communicate.
and whether you recognise that or not - that is the only truth inner London working class youth know, or recognise.

i think you'll find that Manchester is the real capital...

I don't doubt that a lot of people round your way would be 'astounded at such an assertion,' but then lots of people are astounded about lots of things.

When did you become the oracle regarding London working class youth?

 

[rekil]

I hear the star of the Necromancer
My blood is black and my heart doth bleed
I am infernal and my mind's in torment
I'll raise the dead make the world unclean

Metal is way more evil than gangster rap tbh.

 

[Treacle Toes]

You can't tell the difference between all forms of black music and white rock?

Erm no, not always especially since I am educated enough to know that many have the same root.

Now, how about you answer my question: What does a Black person sound like?

 

[Treacle Toes]

When did you become the oracle regarding London working class youth?

Why are you attacking people for knowing more about London Working Class youth than you?

 

[Treacle Toes]

That's actually what I'm saying-it is not some vital cultural-linguistic development, but just kids ditching their real accents to talk in a ridiculous caricature of a Caribbean accent.

Read the posts before you jump in, eh?

LLetsa, what do you think of the poem I posted?

The British​

Take some Picts, Celts and Silures​

And let them settle,​

Then overrun them with Roman conquerors. ​

Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years​

Add lots of Norman French to some​

Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously. ​

Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,​

Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,​

Vietnamese and Sudanese. ​

Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians​

And Pakistanis, ​

Combine with some Guyanese​

And turn up the heat. ​

Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,​

Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some​

Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese​

And Palestinians ​

Then add to the melting pot. ​

Leave the ingredients to simmer. ​

As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish​

Binding them together with English. ​

Allow time to be cool.​

Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,​

Serve with justice​

And enjoy.​

Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.​

Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all. ​

 

[nino_savatte]

You say 'sour grapes' with reference to nothing and then 'What's the point?' when this reference to nothing is pointed out. And you say I make no sense.

Do I need to draw you a picture?

 

[nino_savatte]

Metal is way more evil than gangster rap tbh.

Yep. Funnily enough, I was going to mention death metal and Marilyn Manson (whom people called for to be banned).

 

[nino_savatte]

I might now that King Idiot has come on.

You're the only idiot here, chum. The trouble is, you're far too thick to comprehend it.

 

[phildwyer]

[uote="Jeff Robinson, post: 10380033"]The slur against Jamacian patois what particularly disgusting. In fact, it is a dialect that can be used beautifully as anybody familar with the poetry of Linton Kwesi Johnson or the lyrics of Damian Marley will know.[/quote]

Nınja rule dem etc...

 

[nino_savatte]

I wonder what dear LLETSA makes of those people who speak in so-called Mockney accents? What about all those British singers who sing like Yanks? What about all the Swedes who sing in English?

LLETSA doesn't understand much about popular music. Otherwise he'd know all these things. Instead he pretends and then gets the hump when his lack of knowledge is exposed.

I sometimes get the feeling he was born an old man. But then, even old men know when they're wrong and admit it.

Between the ages of 5 and 6, I went to school in Liverpool. But my accent marked me out. In that year I started speaking like Scouser. I returned to the States with a Scouse accent, which I suddenly had to drop. In essence, you pick up the accent of those around you. If you go to school with people who are Orcadians, the chances are is that you will speak like an Orcadian. it's that simple.

 

[butchersapron]

[uote="Jeff Robinson, post: 10380033"]The slur against Jamacian patois what particularly disgusting. In fact, it is a dialect that can be used beautifully as anybody familar with the poetry of Linton Kwesi Johnson or the lyrics of Damian Marley will know.

Nınja rule dem etc...

[/quote]
Is that blokes trial ever going to happen? Seems like its been going on for years.

 

[killer b]

accused of taking his own songs too literally, eh...

 

[phildwyer]

Is that blokes trial ever going to happen? Seems like its been going on for years.

Whıch trıal ıs that: rape, murder or assault?

 

[Scaggs]

Mark steel's view on Starkey's performance.

What has changed is that the embittered snarling that was once confined to pub corners and fuming blogs now stands a chance of becoming government policy. Irrational screaming has become legitimate, and it's in this context we should see David Starkey.
The riots were caused, apparently, by black culture, and we can get round the fact some rioters were white by saying they'd turned black, and get round the fact most black people don't riot by saying they've turned white. You could use that logic to prove that being Welsh causes boats to capsize, or that everything alive is a penguin. Take away the title historian, and he's one more purveyor of loud incoherent gibberish.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...el-flogging-is-too-good-for-them-2338607.html

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Multicultural London English (abbreviated MLE), colloquially called Jafaican, is a dialect (and/or sociolect) of English that emerged in the late 20th century. It is spoken mainly in inner London. According to research conducted at Queen Mary, University of London, Multicultural London English is gaining territory from Cockney.

It is said to contain many elements from the languages of the Caribbean (Jamaica and Trinidad & Tobago), South Asia (Indian subcontinent), and West Africa,[1][2] as well as remnants of traditional Cockney.[2] Although the street name, "Jafaican", implies that it is "fake" Jamaican, researchers indicate that it is not the language of white kids trying to "play cool" but rather that "[it is] more likely that young people have been growing up in London exposed to a mixture of second-language English and local London English and that this new variety has emerged from that mix".[3]

MLE is used mainly by young, inner-city, working-class people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English

 

[Fozzie Bear]

in the inner cities of the big cities - but especially and above all London - we have a genuinely multi-cultural, multi-ethnic environment. Indigenous English white are if anything a minority in Tottenham. so how could the development of that patois - a phenomenon which is now decades old - by w/c youth (white AND black, and asian) be anything other than a 'cultural-linguistic development'?

FWIW I went to a lecture on linguistics and grime earlier this year. It seems to be widely agreed amongst academics that 1996 was the year in which it was no longer possible to tell the ethnicity of someone speaking "London Jamaican Creole" (LJC) from a recording.

Prior to then it was. (I seem to remember this is covered quite well in Simon Jones' "Black Culture White Youth" which is from the eighties - actually a study of white working class people into reggae in Birmingham).

One of the significant things about grime isn't the multiracial nature of the groups, and the mixed heritage of some of the artists. The significant thing is that it's very rare to see any mention of this, it's just taken for granted.

It's only natural that kids from elsewhere want to mimic the language to appear cool. There were enough people trying to be cockney when I was at school in Hertfordshire in the seventies and eighties.

EDIT: having read the post above maybe I mean MLE rather than LJC, not really my field.

 

[Treacle Toes]

That's the one Miss shelf, although I would like that definition to go further and include/explore other influences. I also think that it is more than 'Jafacian' now and that such a term just reinforces ideas like Starkey's.

 

[butchersapron]

Interesting that Starkey's use of 'white chavs' has gone largely uncommented on.

 

[London_Calling]

According to research conducted at Queen Mary, University of London, Multicultural London English is gaining territory from Cockney

There is a view that, if you want a reasonable approx. of the old Cockney accent, you'll find it in the Essex new towns.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Interesting that Starkey's use of 'white chavs' has gone largely uncommented on.

I don't think it has Butch, although for sure the word 'chav' hasn't been used much in this thread. Starkey was obviously deriding White working class people and accusing them of becoming Black.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

That's the one Miss shelf, although I would like that definition to go further and include/explore other influences. I also think that it is more than 'Jafacian' now and that such a term just reinforces ideas like Starkey's.

I agree with that

I hear a massive Bengali influence on peoples accents in East London

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Interesting that Starkey's use of 'white chavs' has gone largely uncommented on.

It is also interesting that Owen Jones, author of the Chavs book, who was on Newsnight with Starkey doesn't mention it in his write up:
http://owenjones.org/2011/08/16/it-was-like-enoch-powell-meets-alan-partridge/

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've said it isn't Jamaican patois. It's something contrived.

It's a bog-standard cross cultural fuson, just like the English my great-grandmother and grandmother spoke - standard working class London dialect cross-fused with Yiddish and Anglo-Yiddish.

So yes, it's partially "contrived", insofar as it's a direct attempt by a "community" to have their own "language", but that merely makes it the same as every other community, not different.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't deny that, but that STILL doesn't make it contrived, not for teenagers and the younger. It is, for better or worse, the sreet language that they heard from a very early age, and learnt from it naturally, as you do - just as I learnt naturally from the excellent standard of RP English I heard all around me (family and locality) from a very early age.
Which is why that patois, dialect, what-you-will WOULD be contrived as fuck were i ever to adopt it, but not those kids.

Well, depends how you mean "contrived, mate. All dialects are partly contrived, because they're often reinforcements of identity, and some (rhyming slang for instance) are deliberately contrived as a foil to surveillance. I think that where LLETSA is going wrong is that he's assuming that the use of language is deliberate, rather than it being learned in the same way you "naturally" talk a certain way with your mates, and a different way with granny and great aunt Emmeline.

 

[ViolentPanda]

For most of them it isn't a 'street language' at all. You get just as many middle class kiddies, whose main view of 'the street' is from behind the windows of mummy's four wheel drive during the school run, using it, which makes it all the more ridiculous.

Who's talking about middle-class twats except you? They're irrelevant.

Even if what you're saying is true of some, it can only be a tiny minority, as most children naturally adopt the accent of their parents and other close relatives, followed by that of the majority in their neighbourhoods.

Clever chap. You appear to understand, which is what makes your next paragraph incredibly stupid.

For the vast majority using this artificial dialect, they contrive to use it to fit in with their peer group, and maybe sound like some dickhead whose music they listen to.

Yes, you nudnik. Just like some British working class blokes used/affected faux-American accents in the '40s and '50s for the same reasons. Does the fact that it might be to some degree affected render it invalid? Of course it doesn't. No more than Anglo-Jewish kids half my age using Yiddish sland is invalid.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

It's a bog-standard cross cultural fuson, just like the English my great-grandmother and grandmother spoke - standard working class London dialect cross-fused with Yiddish and Anglo-Yiddish.

So yes, it's partially "contrived", insofar as it's a direct attempt by a "community" to have their own "language", but that merely makes it the same as every other community, not different.

you can hear that accent still spoken by some older Jewish and non-Jewish people in the East End of London(occasionally)

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I'm not. Just proudly intolerant, especially of imbeciles.

Self-hater. eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

you can hear that accent still spoken by some older Jewish and non-Jewish people in the East End of London(occasionally)

Yep. It's brilliant.