butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I deny this nonsense thrice.
David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties
- Thread starter magneze
- Start date
I deny this nonsense thrice.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Um. What? Really, this doesn't actually correspond to anything I've said.
Never mind eh.
It corresponds to your last point that you and others have offered other suggestions, other things people can do.
FridgeMagnet said:
Have I not suggested that all this will achieve is a dilution of the action, and questioned you to deny that.
Yet it doesn't correspond to anything you said?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
He just means that he thinks people are to thick to understansd that civil liberties exist or they don't. They need to be weaned via 41 days this year, then 40 days next year and so on- until we reach 28 -BINGO. To oppose this approach is to destroy 'the movement'.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Oh, yes, I think I see. "In order to defend civil liberties we should contribute to the political fortunes of someone who doesn't give a monkey's about them and is actively opposed to the concept in general, because we have to live in the real world etc." Or have I missed something?
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
A Sunday Telegraph poll last night showed the public firmly behind plans for 42-day detention. Some 65 per cent of those questioned backed Brown's plan, against just 30 per cent who supported Tory leader David Cameron's position of retaining the 28-day limit. However, the poll by ICM also showed that Labour is trailing 16 points behind the Conservatives just days ahead of Gordon Brown's toughest parliamentary test since becoming Prime Minister.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/08/terrorism.uksecurity
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I thibk that's the VOTE TORY position in a nutshell. Remember - they believe in reality.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
... and what? Who are you undermining? The blogosphere bubble people who think there's a massive anti 42 day swell and so we simpy must VOTE DAVID?
You missed the post where I pointed out that my comments corresponded perfectly to your post.
You didn't reply either.
That is because you can't deny the questions put to you, and you can't explain how it is better to split any protest into smaller groups.
But hey, don't let me stop you patting butchersapron on the back for lying about what I have said, what I mean and what I am suggesting, I understand that when your argument is as weak as yours and butchers is that you end up resorting to insults, backslapping of the only people who agree with, ignoring any posts you can't deal with and in the end, just lying about what people have said....tho butchers didn't seem to wait for the end, I don't think he had any real points in the first place and just went straight for insults and lies.
Not seen you reach lies yet, though that last post was a borderline insult, but I suppose it is just a matter of time.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Wow, you really don't like people disagreeing with you do you dravinian? That's right, we're all trolls and i've spent 200 posts merely insulting you - i've barely made a point. I am a troll.
So still no reply.
I have not insulted you, I have not lied about what you said, I have not misrepresented your views.
Yet you are so offended by my questioning, that you had to leave the serious argument.
So we can just throw your argument in the bin, if you can't even defend it, then I don't see why any of us should give it any consideration.
John Quays
the reverend relapse
Regarding Fridge Magnet's earlier remarks about supporting Davis and thereby approving the whole rotten system, s'why I don't vote. I have always seen it as too great a compromise of my precious integrity to take part in such a charade.
It seems to me though that butchers apron is so chuffed to have rumbled Davis' political stunt that he forgets that all that these guys ever do is political gamesmanship. Unless he picks and chooses which politicians are honest and which not, but I don't get that impression from his posts.
Suggesting that in his world no party-related announcement has any integrity, ever. As I said a few pages back, that's a valid point of view to hold. But.
It leaves us where? Some political stunts (Brown's macho 42 day law nonsense) have real-life effects on real people and Davis' was the first major voice actively, openly opposing a terrible bill. So it's all to his greater glory or else to that of the Tories, depending on your level of insider knowledge etc...? In this case, so what?
Give the guy some credit, look to use his stance in whatever way you can (which you give us to understand you are doing, butchers apron, fair enough) but for crying out loud, Davis is inside a corrupt business and by the rules of the whole putrid party game, what he did is worth ten times more than anyone else in that house, snivelling hypocrite though he may be.
That's all many posters here are saying and by denying it you sound as if you're caught up in the party jousting worse than most. But vote Tory? Here's hoping you can indeed find an alternative for the people to the west of Hull.
It seems to me though that butchers apron is so chuffed to have rumbled Davis' political stunt that he forgets that all that these guys ever do is political gamesmanship. Unless he picks and chooses which politicians are honest and which not, but I don't get that impression from his posts.
Suggesting that in his world no party-related announcement has any integrity, ever. As I said a few pages back, that's a valid point of view to hold. But.
It leaves us where? Some political stunts (Brown's macho 42 day law nonsense) have real-life effects on real people and Davis' was the first major voice actively, openly opposing a terrible bill. So it's all to his greater glory or else to that of the Tories, depending on your level of insider knowledge etc...? In this case, so what?
Give the guy some credit, look to use his stance in whatever way you can (which you give us to understand you are doing, butchers apron, fair enough) but for crying out loud, Davis is inside a corrupt business and by the rules of the whole putrid party game, what he did is worth ten times more than anyone else in that house, snivelling hypocrite though he may be.
That's all many posters here are saying and by denying it you sound as if you're caught up in the party jousting worse than most. But vote Tory? Here's hoping you can indeed find an alternative for the people to the west of Hull.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post, except perhaps this last bit.
It worries me that it will split the protest.
If Butchersapron finds someone, it will only be someone who lives up to his ideals, as he and Fridge have pointed out, the only problem with Davis is Davis, his history and his opinions, so clearly the other candidate must have a better history and opinions.
But those opinions are going to be shared by less people.
Not everyone I know is against ID cards for instance. I know I have tried to explain to them, but they think they will be a good idea, stop people thieving benefits, stop people abusing health care, make illegal immigration and 'terrorism' harder....yes I know it is ALL bollox, but it ain't that easy to explain why it is bollox and it is hard to change peoples minds.....as this thread will attest.
So say butchersapron finds someone to stand who is against ID cards and 42 Days.
Well now some of the people that 'might' have protested against 42 days are thinking...but I like ID cards, I don't want to go and suppress that just to suppress 42 days.
That is just one example of a single point of Civil Liberties.
I think the simple banner. No to 42 days. Is very wide. It will encompass a lot of people who normally wouldn't stand shoulder to shoulder.
That is the whole point, standing shoulder to shoulder to people on a SINGLE issue, when normally you might not.....and that includes Davis, who because of his position will have umpteen cameras pointed at him....picking up our protest.
Once again I have to ask. How can anyone think that David Davis is a supporter of civil liberties?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Surely a more productive and positive position would be to support Davis while pointing out that he should be going much further? I mean, blindly condemning the less bad option in a two-horse race rarely works and (as was the danger with 28 days) indeed is often counterproductive - just ask anyone who voted Nader in 2000.
It doesn't matter if you think he is or not.
It matters that the media will be watching, it matters that it is a wide banner that many people can stand under.
I'd never stand under any banner held up by Davis Davis.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Because on some issues he is, or at least he is claiming to be (which given the media attention this has recieved it is much the same thing). Thanks to what he did last Thursday, the issue (and id cards / cctv / dna) has achieved the national prominence it needs - whether he is genuine or it is a stunt is pretty moot.
I can't agree.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
But if it is a banner of his making (he made the news story so it starts out looking like it's his) and he has guaranteed media access (which he does), it may well end up with him claiming you as supporters (and making that claim on his own terms) rather than you claiming the issue as your own.
So rather than run the all too obvious risk of enhancing the position of someone with a proven anti-civil liberties track record (see his parliamentary voting record), why not use the space provided by his decision to stand, to mount a genuine pro-civil liberties campaign. This could take the form of putting forward another candidate, and/or events that would appeal to the current media spotlight.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
... and in the absence of such a candidate?
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It's a one-horse race anyway. The point I would say is therefore to use the situation as best as possible to publicise and raise civil liberties issues, but not to (a) allow that to simply be treated as support for party X, which defuses the whole thing, and (b) give the impression that actually you'll not only be quite happy to settle for least-worst every time but would actually give it support. That's not going to happen by campaigning for Davis.
).As I said to others, while you are waiting to fight the good fight with the right candidate, we are losing the war on civil liberties. We have given up much ground and we still don't even have a viable campaign to get behind.
I am prepared, given the current situation...ie no other alternatives being offered up, to go with what is available to try and stem the tide.
I am not looking for another candidate, that is not when I mean by alternatives.
What I mean is there is no other campaign with as much media exposure, with as many people willing to be involved with it.
So keep waiting, and while your rights are stripped away as you are waiting you can wonder why you never had the chance to do anything...perhaps cause no one can live up to your ideals and therefore you can't stand under a banner with them.
The fact is, no one has, and it is likely no one will.
Why is it likely that no one will?
Well no one has so far. There is no alternative campaign with as much momentum or media attention, and there hasn't been since The Labour party began down this authoritarian road.
This is the FIRST major campaign to fight for Civil Liberties that I have seen get this much exposure, get this much air time, become common knowledge for everyone.
Sure I bet good money you could drag up some barely posted in thread on this message board about a march that went ahead with 300 people in it. I bet I could ask any 1000 people on the streets outside my house and barely any of them would have even known it had happened.
Ask them about David Davis and they know.
magneze
🎧
Had a quick look on the website, couldn't find this. Do you have a link?
Here you go mate, think its the same as in the paper this morning
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/columnists/kavanagh/article686412.ece
Similar threads
