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David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

Relative to the front bench, within a small parameter, and in a way that is easily digestable by the general public .........he is relatively more of a proponent of civ libs than the Labour party front bench.

That is what is important, else we should be criticising why he isn't campaigning for 48 hour detention period. I mean how purest can you get on this?

No it's not. Why is that that tiny little bit what's important? Why not the mile that they nicked with his help?

The idea that normal people are too thick to get that the mass grab of our rights is simply wrong and need to be led by the nose to that conclusion bit by bit is also wrong. Still, at lest you're an out there support 28 days (for now) poster.
 
The idea that normal people are too thick to get that the mass grab of our rights

Normal people appear to be supporting 42 days etc, I wouldn't call that thick, misguided perhaps, or else we might already have a utopian society.

I would be arguing to be in line with all other criminal activity, as a staring point, on the other hand, so clearly very off the mass message.
 
You think. I think it's been pretty clearly shown over the breadth of this thread that there's nary a civil liberatarina bone in his body. Jeff has just brought in the HRA nuclear bomb. Your attempt to make it look like he had to vote for 28 days as a pro-civil liberties measure have failed. His pronouncements on hanging and votes equal gay riights are just a few other headline issues that have been brought up. There's more too i suspect.

Butchers, the "HRA nuclear bomb" must be Iraqi in origin, because it does not exist. There is a good argument here about the relative efficacy of the HRA:

In 1998 the Blair government introduced a piece of legislation which was supposed to revolutionise human rights in this country; gone would be the days when ill-defined and ill-ordered laws and conventions protected the citizen, now was a bright new dawn when nobody would ever suffer state or corporate oppression again. Ten years on, I believe that this ‘Convention on Human Rights’ has failed to do what it was supposed to do, apart from make a few lawyers even richer. Typically, those attacking the Human Rights Act (HRA) would now launch into a rant about how all it does is protect murderers from being identified, or jailed rapists who want to keep their lottery winnings, or terrorists from being deported. While this might be a valid argument, the real question is whether or not the HRA has protected the rights of the citizen. In a word, no.

Britain currently has the longest pre-charge detention period in the world, at 28 days, which was brought in after the HRA was introduced. Nor did the HRA protect us when the Blair government tried to introduce a 90 day limit, and it won’t protect us when Gordon Brown attempts to raise the limit to 42 days. Britain has been complicit in America’s policy of extraordinary rendition, allowing them to use British territory to transport suspects to CIA facilities.

Peaceful protestors have been harassed and threatened with arrest, especially under the catch-all clause of ‘anti-terrorism’, even if their protest has nothing at all to do with terrorism and is not the slightest bit violent. Police have to give a good reason for stopping and searching someone, unless they are stopped and searched under section 44 of the Terrorism Act (introduced after the HRA).

The HRA supposedly enshrines the right to privacy. Britons are now the most spied-upon people in the world. CCTV cameras dot every street, and it is estimated that the average Briton is photographed by CCTV cameras dozens of times a day. People now have the right to know who their father is, so the privacy of sperm donors is no longer protected. Dozens of types of officials can now legally gain entry into your home. Governments can seize your property and leave you with minimal compensation if they so desire.

Both central and local governments seem to spending most of their waking hours trying to build up databases on us, which can be legally accessed by hundreds of thousands of government officials, not forgetting the hackers. Police keep DNA even from suspects who have been found innocent. Increasingly, forms contain questions of sexual orientation, religion and suchlike, even though it is none of the state’s business. One council was founded to have used anti-terror legislation to spy on a family whom they thought had lied about their address in order to get their child into a good state school (they hadn’t). ID cards will not be stopped by the HRA.

As for free speech, ha! Now the government is planning to criminalise large swathes of consensual pornography, after introduced a religious hatred bill, which is likely to turn out to be a lawyers’ playground.

Before the HRA was introduced, Britain was not some idyllic paradise. Nor would abolishing it solve all the problems in a stroke. What we need to protect our rights are carefully-drafted laws which relate to individual issues, and offer concrete guarantees rather than some vague commitment to ideals which the state always bypasses anyway.

http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2040
 
Normal people appear to be supporting 42 days etc, I wouldn't call that thick, misguided perhaps, or else we might already have a utopian society.

I would be arguing to be in line with all other criminal activity, as a staring point, on the other hand, so clearly very off the mass message.

See i'm confused, the people from the VOTE TORY blogoshop keep telling there's a massive swell in this constituency against 42 days. Whose right?
 
Butchers, the "HRA nuclear bomb" must be Iraqi in origin, because it does not exist. There is a good argument here about the relative efficacy of the HRA:



http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2040

I'd agree with much of the criticism of the HRA but I also agree with liberty who described Cameron's attacks on it as "dangerous and disappointing nonsense". He opposed it on the basis that it prevents Britain from sending terror suspects to countries which practice torture and executions. Davis backed Cameron on that point. Presumably then they are also in favour of Britain withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights aswell? I doubt it but such cheap populism and appeals to xenophobia reveal how little the tories are committed to our civil liberties.
 
I'd agree with much of the criticism of the HRA but I also agree with liberty who described Cameron's attacks on it as "dangerous and disappointing nonsense". He opposed it on the basis that it prevents Britain from sending terror suspects to countries which practice torture and executions. Davis backed Cameron on that point. Presumably then they are also in favour of Britain withdrawing from the European Convention on Human Rights aswell? I doubt it but such cheap populism and appeals to xenophobia reveal how little the tories are committed to our civil liberties.

True, but IIRC there was a convention pre-1998 that we wouldnt extradite people to get tortured or killed anyway, and there was a lot more scrutiny of extradition requests than there is now for the US, and most of Europe.
 
They don't get to say that in any rational sense. They may get to put that idea forward in the media, but the problem there is not that people aren't supporting the Tory, it is that they are still managing to promote the whole "there is no alternative" / "politics is approved factions" concept, and every time you play to that it just gets more entrenched.

The point has been raised though FridgeMagnet that this is an important enough issue to say, put that political fighting aside and stand for the issue.

Are you going to manage to change the minds of 30+ million inhabitants by the time of the next election? Are you going to even hope to change their minds and break the habit of factional politics by the time we get to 90 days detention without charge?

You and I both know the answer to be no.

So while you are "fighting the good fight" we are losing the war.
 
True, but IIRC there was a convention pre-1998 that we wouldnt extradite people to get tortured or killed anyway, and there was a lot more scrutiny of extradition requests than there is now for the US, and most of Europe.

Well Britain had been a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights since 1953 and article 3 upholds an absolute ban on torture and degrading treatment. European case law holds that this absolute ban imposes an obligation on member states to not deport people to countries where they will be subjected to torture. Prior to 2000 when the HRA came into effect British residents could only seek redress to human rights claims by the long and arduous task of getting leave to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights based in Strassburg. The 2000 Act allowed remedies to be sought in British courts for such claims. If Cameron is really serious about his pro-torture policies then he would have to withdraw Britain from the ECHR aswell!

He was talking out of arse - cheap populist soundbites. But such people are not fit to preside over our civil liberties!
 
The point has been raised though FridgeMagnet that this is an important enough issue to say, put that political fighting aside and stand for the issue.

Are you going to manage to change the minds of 30+ million inhabitants by the time of the next election? Are you going to even hope to change their minds and break the habit of factional politics by the time we get to 90 days detention without charge?

You and I both know the answer to be no.

So while you are "fighting the good fight" we are losing the war.
Oh good god. What issue? Civil rights? So what use is having a candidate who is complict in past theft of those rights? A candidate who frankly will win with or without your support. Which leaves a 3 weeks space to either support him or make a serious pro-civil liberties camapign, one that will neccessarly be against David Davis and the tradition that he represents. Or you line up like you argue people should like good cannon fodder. You want to give MPs a warning (and this is only how politics should be carried on is the subtext) then don't buckle under and walk into their traps at the first sign of thenm fluttering their eyes at you. Challange them.
 
Oh good god. What issue? Civil rights? So what use is having a candidate who is complict in past theft of those rights? A candidate who frankly will win with or without your support. Which leaves a 3 weeks space to either support him or make a serious pro-civil liberties camapign, one that will neccessarly be against David Davis and the tradition that he represents. Or you line up like you argue people should like good cannon fodder. You want to give MPs a warning (and this is only how politics should be carried on is the subtext) then don't buckle under and walk into their traps at the first sign of thenm fluttering their eyes at you. Challange them.

You want a pure fight, with a perfect candidate, with an ideal history that matches your opinions perfectly.

I want an event that will reveal the number of people who care about the issue of 42 days.
 
You want a pure fight, with a perfect candidate, with an ideal history that matches your opinions perfectly.

I want an event that will reveal the number of people who care about the issue of 42 days.

No i don't. I want a messy fight with all sorts of opinions.

I don't think a pro-civil liberties campaign should be wedded to an anti civil rights tory, It's not complicated.
 
The point has been raised though FridgeMagnet that this is an important enough issue to say, put that political fighting aside and stand for the issue.

Are you going to manage to change the minds of 30+ million inhabitants by the time of the next election? Are you going to even hope to change their minds and break the habit of factional politics by the time we get to 90 days detention without charge?

You and I both know the answer to be no.

So while you are "fighting the good fight" we are losing the war.

By supporting the Tories you are "losing the war", and not even "winning a battle". There's no point pretending that Davis or the Tories are in any sense "pro civil liberties" - oh, a few old-school Tories might be actually ideologically opposed here, but that's as relevant as the fact that there are still a few old-school Labourites around. Certainly Davis isn't unless he's just had an amazing Damascene moment in the last few days.

It's a stunt, and supporting it is perpetuating the whole crap system and won't achieve anything anyway. All that it will be taken to mean is "ooh the Tories have had another victory". It won't make a difference to the law or support or opposition for the law; it won't even make a difference to the result, he's bound to win in any case. The only sensible response is to use the publicity as a stepping stone to say "hey, actually, neither of them are doing any good, let's look at and publicise the real issues".
 
Well Britain had been a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights since 1953 and article 3 upholds an absolute ban on torture and degrading treatment. European case law holds that this absolute ban imposes an obligation on member states to not deport people to countries where they will be subjected to torture. Prior to 2000 when the HRA came into effect British residents could only seek redress to human rights claims by the long and arduous task of getting leave to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights based in Strassburg. The 2000 Act allowed remedies to be sought in British courts for such claims. If Cameron is really serious about his pro-torture policies then he would have to withdraw Britain from the ECHR aswell!

He was talking out of arse - cheap populist soundbites. But such people are not fit to preside over our civil liberties!

I agree with you about Cameron, especially given the whispers that Osborne, Gove and (possibly) he were less sure about Davis' position "based on the popular support for 42 days", and his "heir to Blair" antics should fill everyone with deep concern.
 
The only sensible response is to use the publicity as a stepping stone to say "hey, actually, neither of them are doing any good, let's look at and publicise the real issues".

In theory yes, in practice the whole media machine and political establishment are so tightly knit it wouldn't (and won't) be possible to make any meaningful impact in this area.

Love to see someone try though..........badgers???
 
In theory yes, in practice the whole media machine and political establishment are so tightly knit it wouldn't (and won't) be possible to make any meaningful impact in this area.

Love to see someone try though..........badgers???

Well, supporting the Tories here makes the situation _worse_, so trying can only be an improvement.
 
By supporting the Tories you are "losing the war", and not even "winning a battle". There's no point pretending that Davis or the Tories are in any sense "pro civil liberties" - oh, a few old-school Tories might be actually ideologically opposed here, but that's as relevant as the fact that there are still a few old-school Labourites around. Certainly Davis isn't unless he's just had an amazing Damascene moment in the last few days.

It's a stunt, and supporting it is perpetuating the whole crap system and won't achieve anything anyway. All that it will be taken to mean is "ooh the Tories have had another victory". It won't make a difference to the law or support or opposition for the law; it won't even make a difference to the result, he's bound to win in any case. The only sensible response is to use the publicity as a stepping stone to say "hey, actually, neither of them are doing any good, let's look at and publicise the real issues".

You talk about the system, like you have a choice.

You are a part of the system, like it or not.

You can either fight for your rights within it when you get presented with the best chances of gaining something, even when it means that you have to support a bullshit political stunt in the process, or you can wave your arms around ineffectually while our liberties are stripped even further.

I would prefer we fight, when and where we get the chance.
 
When it comes down to it, I think I am more a realist.

I see this as nothing more then an opportunity that we have not previously had.

People like yourself FridgeMagnet and others, have been fighting this 'pure' (for want of a better word) fight for awhile, it is nothing new. It hasn't got us anywhere. We are losing ground. We are losing rights hand over fist.

You don't think that might be telling us something about the methods we are using?

You don't think it is worth a different tactic. Worth using the actions of someone, even someone you don't particularly agree with, and know he is doing this for his own ends, and using that as a spring board.

Better to continue to fight for the perfect situation, that will never come?
 
No, the thing is, you're apparently re-interpreting the whole thing according to this weird "purity" idea. Your idea, not mine.

The point is that supporting the Tories here will harm the promotion of civil liberties. Saying "vote Davis" is actively counter-productive. It will do nothing and merely serve to promote a party who are against them. There are plenty of other things that can be done as I and others have said.
 
When it comes down to it, I think I am more a realist.

I see this as nothing more then an opportunity that we have not previously had.

People like yourself FridgeMagnet and others, have been fighting this 'pure' (for want of a better word) fight for awhile, it is nothing new. It hasn't got us anywhere. We are losing ground. We are losing rights hand over fist.

You don't think that might be telling us something about the methods we are using?

You don't think it is worth a different tactic. Worth using the actions of someone, even someone you don't particularly agree with, and know he is doing this for his own ends, and using that as a spring board.

Better to continue to fight for the perfect situation, that will never come?

Stop saying 'we' please.

I presume that you've been using your officially sanctioned methods for just as long as 'we' have? How'd that go?

Time to get serious, time to VOTE TORY.
 
No, the thing is, you're apparently re-interpreting the whole thing according to this weird "purity" idea. Your idea, not mine.

The point is that supporting the Tories here will harm the promotion of civil liberties. Saying "vote Davis" is actively counter-productive. It will do nothing and merely serve to promote a party who are against them. There are plenty of other things that can be done as I and others have said.

And as I have stated, the more you define the banner, the more banners you have, the less impact they will have.

Not everyone will agree with your stance on Civil Liberties, you know this. So the more staunch you become in your desires for Civil Liberties, the less people will stand with you.

Do you deny that?

The more people there are to stand with, Davis, New Candidate 1, More Extreme New Candidate Number 2. The less people there will be standing together.

Do you deny that?

So what can't you see about swallowing a bad pill to send the most powerful message?
 
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