Daniel Perl's father: anti Zionism is racism.

[Johnny Canuck3]

i'll display any kind of emotion i choose about the situation indeed it is the very fact that you are able to seperate your emotion from the death toll of say 9/11 and the vaildity of those needless deaths but are incapable of extending the same vailidity to the needless deaths with in palestine which singles you and your runnign mate mears as being the empathically retarded and also cultural supremicists you are.

how can this situation not be emotional, are you impassive to generation after generation who are blighted by constant war? be they israeli or palestinian?
...

As I've said, I did become emotional as a result of 911. My emotion drove me into a position of backing the actions of the US, no matter what, as a result of my anger and even desire for revenge.

As time has gone by, my determination that such a thing should never happen again remains undiminished, but with a lessening of the anger, I've been able to come to see that Bush and his administration are largely incompetent, and are therefore not the proper superintendents of the important task of preventing terrorism in NA.

Anger is natural, but it tends to cloud reason. IMO, people become more effective when they can at least put their anger in the back seat, and try to put reason back into the driver's seat.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Are you saying there isn't widespread support in many middle eastern countries for the idea that Israel should cease to exist?

this is relevant to the palestinian actions how?

and for the record no, eygpt saudi syria have all reluctantly agreed to accept israel jordan has accepted israel...

you are again attempting to portray all arab states as siding with the lunatic ranting's of one iranian and charcterising this as the norm...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

true enough but again like mears you are speaking with out a real clue as to the actions of others and attempting to portray this as fact...

irreleivant comment and guess what

wriggle number 9...

The palestinian conflict isn't the only one in the world, and there are lots of ways that people everywhere become familiar with the mechanics of conflict. Even here in North America.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

i don't have any obligation to answer anything you post as you are clear deviod of any capabiltiy to discuss this matter, you are neither informed, knowledgeable, competant or for that matter up for discussion. As usual you attempt to impose your point of view whilst poopooing any oposing voices and then throw your hand in the air and squeal about it when people disagree.....

I'm not imposing anything. I'm airing my point of view.

And Garfield, as far as squealing goes, review the thread, and tell me who it is that's doing the best imitation of a stuck porker.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Your original point was that many palestinians and israelis were friends, and that I was creating a false dichotomy from my sheltered and parochial viewpoint in NA.

I was using as an example of the reality of the dichotomy, actions by the palestinians and by the israelis, that point to the existence of the dichotomy. If you don't like those examples, there are countless others.

no my point was that there is minimal hatred of israelis by palestinians and at the present time a gowing number of israelis whom have decided that the current situation cannot continue. There are many groups which are comprised of both israelis and palestinians who are attempting to resolve this peacefully. you are attempting to portray this as the exception rather than the norm...

what i dont' like is that your examples are portrayed in isolation as unconnected x bad y good... again your lack of knowledge your own accepted sheletered view point coupled with your willfull ignorence not allowing you to debate or even comment on the subject...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well here's one for you jonny are you capable of getting of your arse and spending say 6 weeks in palestine? it doesn't have to be gaza or anything horrific, just go to a town or a village live with the people and see what daily life is like for them... then you might be in a postition to report back, pass comment, to have some level of idea of the situation...

So, I can't comment on tensions in Korea unless I visit there; I can't comment on French racism unless I view it firsthand, I can't discuss American actions in Central America because I've never been?

I have an opinion about palestine, but I don't have any plans to visit there soon. You can dismiss what I have to say as a result, but if that's your tack, then you'll have to dismiss the opinions vis a vis the mideast, of 99.99% of the people you meet or talk to.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Most people like to believe their comments are balanced or informed.

How is that somehow a personal attack against you?

becuase they are neither it's not just a personally attack on me it's a personal attack on each and every person who contributes to you bigotted threads and attempts an honest level of debate with you... you are simply seeking to have your prejudices confirmed...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I find i a mockery of everything i and many countless others have done to have some middle aged lazy tiresome bigot cast aspersions on the actions taken by both palesitnians and israelis to seek and provide a solution to the barbaric apathide system which is current underway with in palestine i find it wholley objectionable that you can sit with all of your creature comforts without so much as fear of where then next cup of coffee might come from and with no experince or relevant facts to comment. to dismiss these actions with the flippancy of your well it's anti semetic is as relvant as the indian citing white supremacist subjigation......

Fair enough, but there are people in Israel with similar beliefs, who are prepared to die for them. I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do.

P.s. you'll have to look a long way to find anything I've said to indicate that I think the palestinians have been treated fairly.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

this like all of your threads on the subject it has no mertit except to stroke the ego of a very bigotted and self rightious indivual who posted them...

I start these threads to provoke discussion and to provide a counterpoint to the monotonously similar type threads started by the majority of posters on this subject.

You aren't afraid to face dissenting views, are you?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

As I've said, I did become emotional as a result of 911. My emotion drove me into a position of backing the actions of the US, no matter what, as a result of my anger and even desire for revenge.

As time has gone by, my determination that such a thing should never happen again remains undiminished, but with a lessening of the anger, I've been able to come to see that Bush and his administration are largely incompetent, and are therefore not the proper superintendents of the important task of preventing terrorism in NA.

Anger is natural, but it tends to cloud reason. IMO, people become more effective when they can at least put their anger in the back seat, and try to put reason back into the driver's seat.

well that a consession i suppose now are you going to research up on your topics particually this one in a reasoned manner?

or are oyu going to continually post up these threads from a biased standpoint with little research...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The palestinian conflict isn't the only one in the world, and there are lots of ways that people everywhere become familiar with the mechanics of conflict. Even here in North America.

really i'm sorry if you think you cna fnd a comparable conflict with in NA on even a millionth scale...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm not imposing anything. I'm airing my point of view.

And Garfield, as far as squealing goes, review the thread, and tell me who it is that's doing the best imitation of a stuck porker.

i'm simply responding to you immense ingnorence in the some what vain hope you actually get off your arse and do some basic research....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So, I can't comment on tensions in Korea unless I visit there; I can't comment on French racism unless I view it firsthand, I can't discuss American actions in Central America because I've never been?

I have an opinion about palestine, but I don't have any plans to visit there soon. You can dismiss what I have to say as a result, but if that's your tack, then you'll have to dismiss the opinions vis a vis the mideast, of 99.99% of the people you meet or talk to.

no love you cannot comment on the situaton with out at least tending to the most basic prinicpal of resreach ... you haven't even done that...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Fair enough, but there are people in Israel with similar beliefs, who are prepared to die for them. I'm not the only one who thinks the way I do.

P.s. you'll have to look a long way to find anything I've said to indicate that I think the palestinians have been treated fairly.

neither comment actually exucses your actions you delibertate and willfull ignorence what aren't you getting you aren't informed you comments, opinions are irrelevant...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I start these threads to provoke discussion and to provide a counterpoint to the monotonously similar type threads started by the majority of posters on this subject.

You aren't afraid to face dissenting views, are you?

counter point?

are you for real....

so there is overwheleming reported press of palestinian actions and it is all 100% positive right...

get real you are a fool to your self...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

no my point was that there is minimal hatred of israelis by palestinians and at the present time a gowing number of israelis whom have decided that the current situation cannot continue. There are many groups which are comprised of both israelis and palestinians who are attempting to resolve this peacefully. you are attempting to portray this as the exception rather than the norm...

what i dont' like is that your examples are portrayed in isolation as unconnected x bad y good... again your lack of knowledge your own accepted sheletered view point coupled with your willfull ignorence not allowing you to debate or even comment on the subject...

If the majority on both sides are working for peace, why have so many attempts over the decades ended in failure?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

becuase they are neither it's not just a personally attack on me it's a personal attack on each and every person who contributes to you bigotted threads and attempts an honest level of debate with you... you are simply seeking to have your prejudices confirmed...

In other words, you think I'm wrong, and any disagreement with your position is something you take personally, and react to with personal attacks against the other person who's disagreeing with you?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

really i'm sorry if you think you cna fnd a comparable conflict with in NA on even a millionth scale...

I'm talking about the mechanism of conflict.

You're right, there are no shooting wars or intifadas going on in NA, but I'll bet you could find some native americans who would compare their treatment to that of the palestinians.

Not too long ago here in Canada, the possibility of the armed secession of Quebec was seriously considered by some, and certain terrorist acts resulted in a declaration of martial law, and the placement of soldiers and armored vehicles in the streets of canadian cities.

There are people in Waco texas who might find a parallel between what happened there, and what happens in some palestinian communities.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

no love you cannot comment on the situaton with out at least tending to the most basic prinicpal of resreach ... you haven't even done that...

Maybe you presume too much. I was alive, reading the papers and discussing the events as the six day war took place; I recall the politics of Moshe Dayan and Golda Meyer. I recall when Arafat spoke at the UN with pistols on his hip. I remember the events at Munich, although I wasn't there, I watched it on tv, and read about it in papers and magazines.

What is history to you, can be considered current events by me.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

counter point?

are you for real....

so there is overwheleming reported press of palestinian actions and it is all 100% positive right...

get real you are a fool to your self...

It's pretty much de rigeur these days to be anti zionist, or anti israeli, etc. It does even you good to be exposed to the arguments of the other side from time to time.

If nothing else, it lets you get some exercise for your righteous indignation.

 

[laptop]

arguments

But you've not presented arguments. They're mere assertions.

Over and over again. So no wonder we get bored. Not "scared" - bored.

 

[rhod]

racist black nationalist groups make/made up only a small part of the black body politic

It's interesting that you seem prepared to acknowledge that the "black body politic" consists of a range of opinion, yet seem reluctant to acknowledge the range of opinion within the "jewish body politic" - much of it anti-zionist.

Some might say that that distinction is inadvertently racist, itself.

BTW, how long do the indigenous peoples of North America have to wait for the return of their homelands? (not just a few token reservations) I mean, those cheeky European settlers have only been there for a few generations, haven't they? What right have they got to deny the indigenous population their historic birthright?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's interesting that you seem prepared to acknowledge that the "black body politic" consists of a range of opinion, yet seem reluctant to acknowledge the range of opinion within the "jewish body politic" - much of it anti-zionist.

I don't recall denying that there is a range of jewish opinion. Can you point me to a post where I did so?

I'd be surprised if I did, since I happen to believe that there is a range of jewish opinion on the subject.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's interesting that you seem prepared to acknowledge that the "black body politic" consists of a range of opinion, yet seem reluctant to acknowledge the range of opinion within the "jewish body politic" - much of it anti-zionist.

Some might say that that distinction is inadvertently racist, itself.

BTW, how long do the indigenous peoples of North America have to wait for the return of their homelands? (not just a few token reservations) I mean, those cheeky European settlers have only been there for a few generations, haven't they? What right have they got to deny the indigenous population their historic birthright?

Here in BC, we've handed over thousands of hectares and billions of dollars to aboriginal citizens, along with some limited self government in some instances.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

If the majority on both sides are working for peace, why have so many attempts over the decades ended in failure?

politics...


in one word that and the so called things liek camp david amongst others have not been peacedeals but have cemented the status quo firmly in place when these have been rejected by the palestinians it has been spun as antoher unreasonable arab action... little is of course made of the stolen land or water sources when citing examples of unreasonable israeli action...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

In other words, you think I'm wrong, and any disagreement with your position is something you take personally, and react to with personal attacks against the other person who's disagreeing with you?

no

in other words you are wrong preciesely becuase you are too ill informed to have drawn any conclusion other than what is read in the main stream right wing pro israeli press (ie the usual news sources) you read the shit like the first link and you first reaction is not how doe sthis square with other comments on the situation your first response is HA! see this proves it...

it's shockingly dishonest and again makes no real point, it's not like you even really commented on it is it... you merely regujatated it, sans comment or point...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm talking about the mechanism of conflict.

You're right, there are no shooting wars or intifadas going on in NA, but I'll bet you could find some native americans who would compare their treatment to that of the palestinians.

Not too long ago here in Canada, the possibility of the armed secession of Quebec was seriously considered by some, and certain terrorist acts resulted in a declaration of martial law, and the placement of soldiers and armored vehicles in the streets of canadian cities.

There are people in Waco texas who might find a parallel between what happened there, and what happens in some palestinian communities.

bollocks...

if you can find me one example of systematic land grabbing whilst forcing women to give birth at check points, whislt raids are carried out to forceably remove children from their homes at gun point to be held in administrative detention for untold years for simply working on their farm land in any of NA in the last 30 years then you'd have a comparible situation.

more over waco isn't in Canada, and armed suscession in canada wasn't considered by the mainstream poilitical parties as a necessity with which they would subjigate the population...

so again your comparisons are for shit, and they still don't make up for your lack of knowledge, yet another wriggle...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Maybe you presume too much. I was alive, reading the papers and discussing the events as the six day war took place; I recall the politics of Moshe Dayan and Golda Meyer. I recall when Arafat spoke at the UN with pistols on his hip. I remember the events at Munich, although I wasn't there, I watched it on tv, and read about it in papers and magazines.

What is history to you, can be considered current events by me.

really goodie for you, why the focas on the arb acts and yet nothing about the israeli ones...

bais ... you ... never...

can you also remember that sharon was a war criminal at the same time the disporia, the nakbah can you contexturalise the events you do remember and put them into a wide construct....

or doesn't that matter as they only confirm your prejudices....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It's pretty much de rigeur these days to be anti zionist, or anti israeli, etc. It does even you good to be exposed to the arguments of the other side from time to time.

If nothing else, it lets you get some exercise for your righteous indignation.

what the hell are you talking about you incompetatant self rightious wanker...

exposed to the other side of the argument my arse i'm well aware painfully and to my own detriment of the other arguments, i have watched beatiful intelligent kind honest israeli's be ripped to shreads by their own family for daring to refuse to serve in the military... i have seen the institionalised settlements where the poor are moved into in order to strengthen the israeli strong hold on mala ad'dumim knowing that they are just pawns in a game...

to say what you are saying is to realisticly say well you have to feel sorry for the americans after the death the soliders have witnessed in iraq...

no where have i said and it's another mark of your dishonesty to both yourself and to the subject that this is not a plague on both houses, indeed i have said that both israeli and palestinian lives are blighted by this...

this is a speacious argument and again shows up your own as being a falsehood borne from your own bigotry and not from one esconsed in any kind of fact....

 

[nino_savatte]

Believe it or not, having the idea that jews have had a shit lot of it for centuries, and that the flawed solution that is Israel should be given some chance to work, is not the same as being racist against some other group.

Are all Jews white, Johnny? Because I get the feeling that you only see one thing.

I see you've aboandoned your attempt to convince us that there is a 'flight of Jews from France'. About bloody time too.