Daniel Perl's father: anti Zionism is racism.

[ViolentPanda]

The borders were hardly arbitrary, and not even the worst enemies of Zionism have ever claimed that they were.

I'm presuming you have half an idea about the Zionist concept of Eretz Yisroel?

Now, seeing as you're such a fine academician surely you see the obvious contradictions between your statement and that concept?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It would also be interesting to know how much the rights of the Jewish families who lived in Jerusalem in 1871 were stomped on by the Zionist incomers. I shall ask my friend who's writing a book on the problems that Jews of Middle-Eastern extraction in general (she's of Syrian heritage) have suffered due to Zionism.

You mean besides the casual and structural racism the Misrahim have suffered from the state of Israel?

She may have to publish several volumes.

I

 

[ViolentPanda]

That is going to be an extremely long book.

Unfortunately true, and of course her remit doesn't include what any of the migrants from relict Jewish communities have suffered from Zionism and Zionists in terms of skin-colour prejudice.

 

[Streathamite]

But you haven't explained why the jews shouldn't strive for nationhood.

oh FFS!!! that isn't what I object to - it's when they STEAL someone else's nation to do so, that's the problem.
if you can't understand why that's a problem, ask the citizen of any ex-colony.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

JC2 why are you acting like a reactionary dick... you have been well behaved these last few month all told why are you now resorting back to your previous unevolved uninformed state... did they make your previous incarnation hand back the login becuase you had been brain washed by the 'lefties'....

you clearly know fuck all on this subject like you best buddie mears both of you should cease making yourselves look foolish ...

the joy of the internet is that any one can comment on anything the malise surronding it is that this means people do comment on anything regardless of their knowlesge on a subject... there's an old saying which goes if you don't know then shut the fuck up.... i'd heed it if i were you... you are making a fool out of yourself...

 

[Streathamite]

As you well know, the UN retracted the bit about zionism being the same as racism.

yes, a long, long way after the original resolution; so by the same logic I assume that, should the US go back on motions impelling Iraq to disarm, and subsequently states they were wrong, you'd then support that?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

JC2 why are you acting like a reactionary dick... you have been well behaved these last few month all told why are you now resorting back to your previous unevolved uninformed state... did they make your previous incarnation hand back the login becuase you had been brain washed by the 'lefties'....

you clearly know fuck all on this subject like you best buddie mears both of you should cease making yourselves look foolish ...

the joy of the internet is that any one can comment on anything the malise surronding it is that this means people do comment on anything regardless of their knowlesge on a subject... there's an old saying which goes if you don't know then shut the fuck up.... i'd heed it if i were you... you are making a fool out of yourself...

Funny: any time someone around here doesn't like what I'm saying, they tell me I'm making a fool out of myself.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

yes, a long, long way after the original resolution;

So it took them a long time to realize their error; is that a good thing?

 

[Streathamite]

see my second sentence; you'd then support that, as the truth finally emerging? ditto any UN resolution condemning the war?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

yes, a long, long way after the original resolution; so by the same logic I assume that, should the US go back on motions impelling Iraq to disarm, and subsequently states they were wrong, you'd then support that?

Sure, if it turned out that the basis for the resolutions were wrong.

 

[oi2002]

The man's a bigger fool than his son and a disgrace to Zionism. He's essentially defined being opposed to a nationalism as racist.

The world is full of malign nationalists intent on oppressing their neighbours. By this reasoning any Kuwaiti who objects to Iraqi nationalism, as expressed via the 92 invasion, is a racist. Was the Hutu drive to self determination beyond objection in Rwanda? Who could dispute the ancient Serbian claim to Bosnia. And weren't the Nazis afterall just expressing the volk aspirations of the German polity, afterall their drive East was opposed by many nations only recently formed and so lacking legitimacy.

And having the romantic idea that you are a people does not entitle you to nick someone elses country on the flimsy pretext that your very distant ancestors had a corner of it. The normal procedure is to turn up heavily armed and drive the natives from their huts. More or less what happened in Israel.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Funny: any time someone around here doesn't like what I'm saying, they tell me I'm making a fool out of myself.

maybe they aren't wrong...

if you keep askign the smae question and keep getting the same answer is it not your fault for failing to understand the response you are getting not the the fault of those whom keep rpoviding the same response...

you are consistantly asking the same thing rephrased yet underlying it's the same...

let's put your questions in another way shall we giving uppity niggers equal rights in the usa was a victory for the racist black nationalist groups whose aim and objective is the death of every white...

you see how twisted a mind you would have to have to think like this; how arse about face you would have to approach the situation to draw that conclusion; how deeply in grained your racist sentament must be to extrapolaite that outcome from the civil rights movment...

you are a racist jonny out and out you dislike me and my kind not because of anything other than the over bearing sense of hyterical outrage you feel after 9/11 and instead of being able to see that a group of humans does not indeed cannot represent and entire race...

the odd thign about this is that your version of events doesn't even square with reality on the ground arabs, palestinians have israeli friends compatriates collegues etc and vice versa the continued false dicotomy you keep alluding to doesn't exist real time, some thing you would know in seconds if you got off your insular arse and climbed down from your moralistic pedestal and went an saw for your self...

my question to you is were you to do so, which let's face it you are to ingrained bigotted to even attempt to have your prejudices confirmed to ever do; what's stopping you going out there and seeing for yourself the reality of the situation ?

is it so much easier for you to remain enshrined in you bigotry than to get off your arse, or are you afriad that if you do your whole belife system will come tumbling down as a result...

you do not know the reality of the situation more over it isn't your place or indeed even you imperical right to tell people who are aware of the situation, who have witnessed the reality of the situation that you know best, espcially as you clearly, as has been proved time and time again are more intrested in the attention you gain on a bulletin board by saying mock contraversal things than in doing something to implament change...

you are a parody nothing more and to be honest if you beleive the things you post on this subject a sad indicative on your own shallow emotional state...

you have nothign to say and fewer people to say it too.

do us all a favour and get off your arse or shut the fuck up, either way no one cares about your no mark opinions...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

let's put your questions in another way shall we giving uppity niggers equal rights in the usa was a victory for the racist black nationalist groups whose aim and objective is the death of every white...

Fact is, that would be true. It would only be a small part of the truth, because such racist black nationalist groups make/made up only a small part of the black body politic, but a victory for blacks in the US would by definition also be a victory for them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

you are a racist jonny out and out you dislike me and my kind not because of anything other than the over bearing sense of hyterical outrage you feel after 9/11 and instead of being able to see that a group of humans does not indeed cannot represent and entire race...
.

How could I hate you and your kind when frankly, I have no clue what 'your kind' is?

The pic I've seen of you, I believe on the ugly mug thread, showed a white guy with a lot of earrings in his ears.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

you are a racist jonny out and out you dislike me and my kind not because of anything other than the over bearing sense of hyterical outrage you feel after 9/11 and instead of being able to see that a group of humans does not indeed cannot represent and entire race...
.

Believe it or not, having the idea that jews have had a shit lot of it for centuries, and that the flawed solution that is Israel should be given some chance to work, is not the same as being racist against some other group.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the odd thign about this is that your version of events doesn't even square with reality on the ground arabs, palestinians have israeli friends compatriates collegues etc and vice versa the continued false dicotomy you keep alluding to doesn't exist real time, some thing you would know in seconds if you got off your insular arse and climbed down from your moralistic pedestal and went an saw for your self... .

If the dichotomy is so false, why are palestinian suicide bombers still blowing themselves up in Israeli restaurants, and why are Israeli bulldozers still levelling palestinian homes?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

maybe they aren't wrong...

if you keep askign the smae question and keep getting the same answer is it not your fault for failing to understand the response you are getting not the the fault of those whom keep rpoviding the same response...

you are consistantly asking the same thing rephrased yet underlying it's the same...

let's put your questions in another way shall we giving uppity niggers equal rights in the usa was a victory for the racist black nationalist groups whose aim and objective is the death of every white...

you see how twisted a mind you would have to have to think like this; how arse about face you would have to approach the situation to draw that conclusion; how deeply in grained your racist sentament must be to extrapolaite that outcome from the civil rights movment...

you are a racist jonny out and out you dislike me and my kind not because of anything other than the over bearing sense of hyterical outrage you feel after 9/11 and instead of being able to see that a group of humans does not indeed cannot represent and entire race...

the odd thign about this is that your version of events doesn't even square with reality on the ground arabs, palestinians have israeli friends compatriates collegues etc and vice versa the continued false dicotomy you keep alluding to doesn't exist real time, some thing you would know in seconds if you got off your insular arse and climbed down from your moralistic pedestal and went an saw for your self...

my question to you is were you to do so, which let's face it you are to ingrained bigotted to even attempt to have your prejudices confirmed to ever do; what's stopping you going out there and seeing for yourself the reality of the situation ?

is it so much easier for you to remain enshrined in you bigotry than to get off your arse, or are you afriad that if you do your whole belife system will come tumbling down as a result...

you do not know the reality of the situation more over it isn't your place or indeed even you imperical right to tell people who are aware of the situation, who have witnessed the reality of the situation that you know best, espcially as you clearly, as has been proved time and time again are more intrested in the attention you gain on a bulletin board by saying mock contraversal things than in doing something to implament change...

you are a parody nothing more and to be honest if you beleive the things you post on this subject a sad indicative on your own shallow emotional state...

you have nothign to say and fewer people to say it too.

do us all a favour and get off your arse or shut the fuck up, either way no one cares about your no mark opinions...

Why is it that you are unable to separate personal attacks from an attack on an intellectual position?

Seems to me you see yourself as some sort of activist, or agent for change.
That's all well and good, but imo, the activists or agents who are ultimately victorious are able to keep their eye on the ball/prize, and don't allow themselves to be distracted by cheap and transitory personal emotions, such as you are wont to display.

IMO, the easily distracted crusaders are the one who tend to end up as road kill by the side of the highway.

You can call me a bigot all you want; all that does is lead one to the conclusion that you don't in fact have an answer for the substantive parts of my posts or comments.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Fact is, that would be true. It would only be a small part of the truth, because such racist black nationalist groups make/made up only a small part of the black body politic, but a victory for blacks in the US would by definition also be a victory for them.

it would then be worng to characterise that victory as one perdominantly one fo black nationalism though wouldn't it ... wriggle number one...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

How could I hate you and your kind when frankly, I have no clue what 'your kind' is?

The pic I've seen of you, I believe on the ugly mug thread, showed a white guy with a lot of earrings in his ears.

well that's where you are wrong not white have pale skin tho' ... and let's face it you have yet to post a pic of you anywhere of significance so we still only have you less than honest words to support who you claim you are...

but this is a digression are you honestly taking back the words oyu have previous said about your reason d'etre for why you 'used to be a hippy with left wing leanings until sept 11' which so insensed you as to turn you into the arab hating bigot you have become... wriggle number two...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Believe it or not, having the idea that jews have had a shit lot of it for centuries, and that the flawed solution that is Israel should be given some chance to work, is not the same as being racist against some other group.

beleive it or not the arabs having the idea that forceably removing lands from indiginious peoples is a shit lot has been around for centries, and that rejecting the systematic, extra judical, collective punishment, killing is not the same as saying that israel should not exist.

conversely it would be racist to support such an action... wriggle number three...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

well that's where you are wrong not white have pale skin tho' ... and let's face it you have yet to post a pic of you anywhere of significance so we still only have you less than honest words to support who you claim you are...

but this is a digression ...

It's not a digression. You accused me of hating or being bigoted against you and 'your kind'.

As you confirm, my only indication of what 'your kind' is, is a photo of a pale-skinned individual with earrings. Whatever I might look like, is irrelevant to that particular point.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

If the dichotomy is so false, why are palestinian suicide bombers still blowing themselves up in Israeli restaurants, and why are Israeli bulldozers still levelling palestinian homes?

in the given situation suicude bombers equal less than 0.01% of the population where as by virtue of conscription militariseation and armed forces account for 99% of the population of israel. Faced with the force of a near total nation states armies and also considering the level of daily abuse at the hands of the maority military it is a wonder there is not a eqaulity of military action from the palestinians as they face...


israelis bulldoze homes becuase they will not give building permits as much as they do so because of suicide bombings the fact that you cannot seperate the two shows the limited amount of knowledge you have about the situation...

wriggle number 4 ...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

honestly taking back the words oyu have previous said about your reason d'etre for why you 'used to be a hippy with left wing leanings until sept 11' which so insensed you as to turn you into the arab hating bigot you have become... wriggle number two...

I'm not taking back my words, which aren't as you've described them, tbh.

911 changed me into someone who was angry, and wanting to see an end to any chance that such thing could happen again. Wanting to see a war against the perpetrators and supporters of terrorism, is different from hating all arabs.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

... wriggle number two...

I know this is a cute buzzword that you and others like to employ, but are you capable of simply meeting my points without the useless invective?

It lessens the impact of your arguments.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

beleive it or not the arabs having the idea that forceably removing lands from indiginious peoples is a shit lot has been around for centries, and that rejecting the systematic, extra judical, collective punishment, killing is not the same as saying that israel should not exist.
..

Are you saying there isn't widespread support in many middle eastern countries for the idea that Israel should cease to exist?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

in the given situation suicude bombers equal less than 0.01% of the population where as by virtue of conscription militariseation and armed forces account for 99% of the population of israel. Faced with the force of a near total nation states armies and also considering the level of daily abuse at the hands of the maority military it is a wonder there is not a eqaulity of military action from the palestinians as they face...


israelis bulldoze homes becuase they will not give building permits as much as they do so because of suicide bombings the fact that you cannot seperate the two shows the limited amount of knowledge you have about the situation...

wriggle number 4 ...

Your original point was that many palestinians and israelis were friends, and that I was creating a false dichotomy from my sheltered and parochial viewpoint in NA.

I was using as an example of the reality of the dichotomy, actions by the palestinians and by the israelis, that point to the existence of the dichotomy. If you don't like those examples, there are countless others.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Why is it that you are unable to separate personal attacks from an attack on an intellectual position?

becasue you make it personal by attempting to portray your comments as balanced or even informed when neither is true...

wriggle number 6

it would be like an indian saying all canadians are flat headed humourless dullards using south park as their only refference having never been their or come into contact with a canadian...

you see, at least i hope, how this would be a ludicrious statment to make and yet you continually attempt to enguage in discussion with a similar lack of information and attempt to assert you are correct...

wriggle number 7

Seems to me you see yourself as some sort of activist, or agent for change.
That's all well and good, but imo, the activists or agents who are ultimately victorious are able to keep their eye on the ball/prize, and don't allow themselves to be distracted by cheap and transitory personal emotions, such as you are wont to display.

i'll display any kind of emotion i choose about the situation indeed it is the very fact that you are able to seperate your emotion from the death toll of say 9/11 and the vaildity of those needless deaths but are incapable of extending the same vailidity to the needless deaths with in palestine which singles you and your runnign mate mears as being the empathically retarded and also cultural supremicists you are.

how can this situation not be emotional, are you impassive to generation after generation who are blighted by constant war? be they israeli or palestinian?

wriggle number 8

IMO, the easily distracted crusaders are the one who tend to end up as road kill by the side of the highway.

true enough but again like mears you are speaking with out a real clue as to the actions of others and attempting to portray this as fact...

irreleivant comment and guess what

wriggle number 9

You can call me a bigot all you want; all that does is lead one to the conclusion that you don't in fact have an answer for the substantive parts of my posts or comments.

i don't have any obligation to answer anything you post as you are clear deviod of any capabiltiy to discuss this matter, you are neither informed, knowledgeable, competant or for that matter up for discussion. As usual you attempt to impose your point of view whilst poopooing any oposing voices and then throw your hand in the air and squeal about it when people disagree...

not so much a wriggle as a cop out... the situation has to continue because this is the way i see it and if you don't then i can't think of a solution ...

well here's one for you jonny are you capable of getting of your arse and spending say 6 weeks in palestine? it doesn't have to be gaza or anything horrific, just go to a town or a village live with the people and see what daily life is like for them... then you might be in a postition to report back, pass comment, to have some level of idea of the situation.

are you capable of reading up on your subject, of actually researching the informaiton cross checking it correlating it to other refference material so that you don't have to portray a one sided view point.

you see whilst i beleive you are capable i also beleive you are too bigotted to get of your arse and if we are honest to set in you own mind to do so ...

I find i a mockery of everything i and many countless others have done to have some middle aged lazy tiresome bigot cast aspersions on the actions taken by both palesitnians and israelis to seek and provide a solution to the barbaric apathide system which is current underway with in palestine i find it wholley objectionable that you can sit with all of your creature comforts without so much as fear of where then next cup of coffee might come from and with no experince or relevant facts to comment. to dismiss these actions with the flippancy of your well it's anti semetic is as relvant as the indian citing white supremacist subjigation...

in short you have a big mouth and nothing to back up your assertations, and you speak often about things with which you have no passing intrest in other than to confirm you prejudices time and again...

this like all of your threads on the subject it has no mertit except to stroke the ego of a very bigotted and self rightious indivual who posted them...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

becasue you make it personal by attempting to portray your comments as balanced or even informed when neither is true...
.

Most people like to believe their comments are balanced or informed.

How is that somehow a personal attack against you?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'm not taking back my words, which aren't as you've described them, tbh.

911 changed me into someone who was angry, and wanting to see an end to any chance that such thing could happen again. Wanting to see a war against the perpetrators and supporters of terrorism, is different from hating all arabs.

so you started you campagin against the cia when exactly then?

more empty sentament ...

you focas of hatred has been continuall against muslim and more precisely arabs nations not against the cia or the us forgin policy you'll have to fogive a person for viewing this as an outward portrail of bigotry boarding on racist sentament...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I know this is a cute buzzword that you and others like to employ, but are you capable of simply meeting my points without the useless invective?

It lessens the impact of your arguments.

there is no point in meeting your so called points any more than there is in going into detailed schematics of neurochemistry with a 3 year old ... your understanding is so limited; by willfull ignorence as to be irrelevant and not worthy of disucssion. you actively narrow the parameters of discussion down to facile points in an attempt to distract away from this lack of knowledge...