Cypriot bank savers forced to pay towards Euro/IMF bailout

[Mr.Bishie]

It really is time that the rich banking Eurocrats & the politicians responsible, are dragged out of their homes & fucking burnt.

 

[coley]

Backtracking now but the damage is already done, banking is all about confidence. How much do we pay these geniuses?

Backtrack as much as they like, but this and the playing around closing banks for an extra couple of days is really going to open people's eyes to what can happen to their money when the powercrats start to panic.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

powercrats

They sound like a thoroughly tautologous lot. Redundancy beckons.

 

[frogwoman]

The only criticism I have is that in opposing the sales levy the opposition could be just adding to the austerity measures if the sales levy is thrown out.

I'm not criticising ordinary people who will lose money from attacking the current proposal. I however also think that the well off in Cyprus will criticise the current proposal because those with large amounts in the bank will lose more from it than just austerity or say quantative easing which as I understand it just pushes money upwards.

I take the point that most rich people may not keep huge amounts of money at the bank. I think quite of a lot of them do, though.

So oppose the cuts and this measure then (because this measure is actually just another kind of austerity).

 

[likesfish]

$26 billion in russian money complicates everything Germany isnt very keen on the idea of helping russian "buisnessmen" keep there money.

 

[butchersapron]

$26 billion in russian money complicates everything Germany isnt very keen on the idea of helping russian "buisnessmen" keep there money.

Yes they are, they just don't want to look like they don't. Where is that £10 billion going do you think?

Thanks, as ever, for your informative posts.

 

[coley]

Good coverage on NN at least, though the remark cited earlier " the Germans are coming in for some flak" had me nearly choking on me beer

 

[coley]

Yes they are, they just don't want to look like they don't. Where is that £10 billion going do you think?

Thanks, as ever, for your informative posts.

Cypriot banks? To make sure they don't fail and cost lots of billionaires oodles?

 

[two sheds]

So oppose the cuts and this measure then (because this measure is actually just another kind of austerity).

I'll happily oppose the privatisation and the general austerity. There's no need for privatisation that I can see and austerity is counterproductive as our government has shown. I don't know what happens if the Cypriots reject the whole package - do they go bankrupt? I can't say I'd object too strongly if they defaulted on loans on the principle that - as we keep hearing from the financial community - investments can go up or down.

I still think people should be pressing for the savings levy (I'm not sure of the difference between a levy and a tax however) to become a wealth tax rather than flatly opposing the sales levy.

I keep thinking of when the tories (!) in the 90s (?) introduced fines for traffic and other offenses that were proportional to income. It didn't last long because - as I recall it - a number of magistrates penalised a few very rich people with huge fines for relatively small offenses in what seemed to me to be an attempt to discredit the system. Papers like the Sun and the Mail jumped all over this and the scheme was scrapped and we've heard nothing more like it since. Which is a shame because it seemed a sensible basic scheme.

Similarly, if the savings tax is rejected out of hand then I think what slim chance we have of getting a proper wealth tax (as was one of the proposals) will disappear because they'll say 'ah well we tried that in Cyprus and look what happened - left and right united in condemning it.'

 

[DexterTCN]

Do the politicians and bankers there all have their savings in local banks?

 

[coley]

I'll happily oppose the privatisation and the general austerity. There's no need for privatisation that I can see and austerity is counterproductive as our government has shown. I don't know what happens if the Cypriots reject the whole package - do they go bankrupt? I can't say I'd object too strongly if they defaulted on loans on the principle that - as we keep hearing from the financial community - investments can go up or down.

I still think people should be pressing for the savings levy (I'm not sure of the difference between a levy and a tax however) to become a wealth tax rather than flatly opposing the sales levy.

I keep thinking of when the tories (!) in the 90s (?) introduced fines for traffic and other offenses that were proportional to income. It didn't last long because - as I recall it - a number of magistrates penalised a few very rich people with huge fines for relatively small offenses in what seemed to me to be an attempt to discredit the system. Papers like the Sun and the Mail jumped all over this and the scheme was scrapped and we've heard nothing more like it since. Which is a shame because it seemed a sensible basic scheme.

Similarly, if the savings tax is rejected out of hand then I think what slim chance we have of getting a proper wealth tax (as was one of the proposals) will disappear because they'll say 'ah well we tried that in Cyprus and look what happened - left and right united in condemning it.'

Two sheds ( were you ever known as three sheds?) if you want to espouse a wealth tax or a mansion tax or whatever then start a separate thread and I have no doubts your ideas will be welcomed.
However this thread is about the rather frightening ability of governments to appropriate money belonging to private individuals without warning.
Now, one of the ideas receiving encouragement is that of someone having, say €200,000 on deposit having 10' 12 % taken in order to leave the smaller investors alone, yet in the news today was the case of a teacher recently retired who had his retirement gratuity and proceeds of the sale of his house on deposit, he stands to lose a helluva lot because for once in his life he had a substantial amount on deposit, do you think this is fair?

 

[coley]

Do the politicians and bankers there all have their savings in local banks?

If they did I would suspect their was more transfer activity five days ago than you would find in the premier league

 

[two sheds]

Two sheds ( were you ever known as three sheds?) if you want to espouse a wealth tax or a mansion tax or whatever then start a separate thread and I have no doubts your ideas will be welcomed.

However this thread is about the rather frightening ability of governments to appropriate money belonging to private individuals without warning.

Why is a wealth tax not relevant to this thread? One of the options before they made their decision
was what seems to be a proper wealth tax starting at €100,000. The title is 'Cypriot bank savers forced to pay towards euro-imf bailout'. A wealth tax would include wealthy Cypriot bank savers being forced to pay towards euro-imf bailout. I agree with that.

And if a government wants to impose a wealth tax then it can't let people know because they'll just move their accounts elsewhere.

Now, one of the ideas receiving encouragement is that of someone having, say €200,000 on deposit having 10' 12 % taken in order to leave the smaller investors alone, yet in the news today was the case of a teacher recently retired who had his retirement gratuity and proceeds of the sale of his house on deposit, he stands to lose a helluva lot because for once in his life he had a substantial amount on deposit, do you think this is fair?

No it's not fair and allowance should be made for circumstances like that. Would you agree with a wealth tax if allowance were made for circumstances like that?

I now have four sheds and am thinking of getting another one but I don't think the mods would let me keep changing my user name.

 

[ymu]

Would you agree with this policy if it was a different policy?

Fuck's sake.

 

[two sheds]

From the arguments on here I agree this isn't a wealth tax. I'd like to see a wealth tax.

 

[coley]

Why is a wealth tax not relevant to this thread? One of the options before they made their decision
was what seems to be a proper wealth tax starting at €100,000. The title is 'Cypriot bank savers forced to pay towards euro-imf bailout'. A wealth tax would include wealthy Cypriot bank savers being forced to pay towards euro-imf bailout. I agree with that.

And if a government wants to impose a wealth tax then it can't let people know because they'll just move their accounts elsewhere.



No it's not fair and allowance should be made for circumstances like that. Would you agree with a wealth tax if allowance were made for circumstances like that?

I now have four sheds and am thinking of getting another one but I don't think the mods would let me keep changing my user name.

Sorry, it's late and I have just discovered I have a shortage of brick walls.

 

[two sheds]

Butchers said nobody on the thread was objecting to a wealth tax. I suspect Coley would object to a wealth tax but doesn't want to say that. I suspect Sas who's thread it is would object to a wealth tax, along with most tories.

I disagree with the privatisation and I disagree with the austerity measures. I disagree with the savings tax as they are suggesting it. What else should I disagree with?

 

[coley]

Butchers said nobody on the thread was objecting to a wealth tax. I suspect Coley would object to a wealth tax but doesn't want to say that. I suspect Sas who's thread it is would object to a wealth tax, along with most tories.

I disagree with the privatisation and I disagree with the austerity measures. I disagree with the savings tax as they are suggesting it. What else should I disagree with?

In you, smack smack, time for bed.

 

[two sheds]

time for bed.

Yes I'd not disagree with that

 

[coley]

Yes I'd not disagree with that

never pays to take life too seriously.

 

[ymu]

The only criticism I have is that in opposing the sales levy the opposition could be just adding to the austerity measures if the sales levy is thrown out.

I'm not criticising ordinary people who will lose money from attacking the current proposal. I however also think that the well off in Cyprus will criticise the current proposal because those with large amounts in the bank will lose more from it than just austerity or say quantative easing which as I understand it just pushes money upwards.

I take the point that most rich people may not keep huge amounts of money at the bank. I think quite of a lot of them do, though.

Yes, they do keep huge amounts of cash, but it's only a small percentage of their wealth. They're rich fuckers, you see.

If they hold an average 10% of their wealth in cash, they'll pay a one off 1% tax, compared to 7% for people who just got paid, small savers, people saving up for holidays or a training course or a deposit on a house or for their kid's to go to university.

And that's a generous estimate given that the very rich won't have all their cash in local bank accounts but most others will.

You cannot defend this policy on the grounds that it hits some of the wealth of some of the people who deserve to be hit. The bailout is protecting precisely those people and this form of cash tax is designed to protect them from even having to contribute a fair share of what they're gaining from it. The only people who should be paying a penny for the crisis are those who caused it who, incidentally, can also afford to pay for it without losing the ability to house and feed themselves.

 

[8115]

Interesting interview with Alistair Darling on the today program.

I suppose I don't oppose the principle of deposits being used especially in a case like this where there's large amounts of slightly shady extra-EU money (inflating the size of the bailout needed?) but smaller depositers should have their deposits protected. So maybe somewhere in the middle.

I think Alistair Darling was also saying that the fact of confidence is also very important so that maybe deposits should be 100% protected just because the cost of a run on the banks would be so high.

 

[junglevip]

More vids I'm afraid... .. .

 

[two sheds]

Yes, they do keep huge amounts of cash, but it's only a small percentage of their wealth. They're rich fuckers, you see.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/18/cyprus-closes-banks-bailout-package

Thousands of Russians have bank accounts in Cyprus, which has styled itself as a tax haven to attract international deposits into a banking system now at least eight times the size of the island's €17bn economy. ...

... nearly half of the €70bn worth of deposits in Cyprus' banks is held by foreigners, and the vast majority are believed to be from Russian officials and oligarchs who have flocked to Cypriot banks seeking the secrecy they are unable to find at home. ...

Cyprus has faced criticism that it has become a money-laundering haven for hot Russian cash and this is thought to have motivated the levy on bank accounts.

Nearly half the funds are actually from rich Russians avoiding tax, and a lot of that is laundered money. Some of the rest will be from the richer Cypriots, and they're now talking about protecting anyone below €20,000. And yes I agree that is still unfair.

If they hadn't done this I presume they would have added an equivalent amount to the austerity measures. Yes it's massively unfair to poor people caught in this but adding to the austerity measures is massively unfair, too, because that's hitting people with nothing at the bank.

The only people who should be paying a penny for the crisis are those who caused it who, incidentally, can also afford to pay for it without losing the ability to house and feed themselves.

Clearly what should really happen is the people at the top who have created the current problems thus adding to their phenomenal wealth over the last couple of years should pay. Problem solved.

 

[kebabking]

Interesting interview with Alistair Darling on the today program.

I suppose I don't oppose the principle of deposits being used especially in a case like this where there's large amounts of slightly shady extra-EU money (inflating the size of the bailout needed?) but smaller depositers should have their deposits protected. So maybe somewhere in the middle.

I think Alistair Darling was also saying that the fact of confidence is also very important so that maybe deposits should be 100% protected just because the cost of a run on the banks would be so high.

yes, i heard that - he seemed to be saying that this would cause more damage to the banking system than it cured, on the basis that if it can happen to the Cypriots then it can happen elsewhere, and people are going to take action accordingly. if the money in your state guarranteed bank account isn't safe, then its time to stuff it under the bed, or invest in a thousand litres of Diesel and stick it in the garage, or buy a field, some cabbage seeds and a shotgun.

i fear the phrase 'botched bailout' is going become as synominous as 'England batting collapse'.

 

[coley]

More vids I'm afraid... .. .

Says if all, perhaps it will explain the situation sufficiently simply, even for for 2 sheds

 

[ymu]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/18/cyprus-closes-banks-bailout-package



Nearly half the funds are actually from rich Russians avoiding tax, and a lot of that is laundered money. Some of the rest will be from the richer Cypriots, and they're now talking about protecting anyone below €20,000. And yes I agree that is still unfair.

If they hadn't done this I presume they would have added an equivalent amount to the austerity measures. Yes it's massively unfair to poor people caught in this but adding to the austerity measures is massively unfair, too, because that's hitting people with nothing at the bank.

You've already had it explained that this bailout is not instead of austerity any more than ours was. It is a means of making a banking crisis into a sovereign debt crisis which is then used to justify austerity because the government was reckless with its cash (never mind that Cyprus, Spain and Ireland were all running surpluses before their over-sized banking sectors crashed).

You seem to be grasping at straws to justify your initial positive response. Yes, it is good that some of the Russian mafia money will be confiscated in this way. No, it is not good that other savers are being hit precisely because the government wants to keep the Russian mafia money coming in.

 

[butchersapron]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/18/cyprus-closes-banks-bailout-package



Nearly half the funds are actually from rich Russians avoiding tax, and a lot of that is laundered money. Some of the rest will be from the richer Cypriots, and they're now talking about protecting anyone below €20,000. And yes I agree that is still unfair.

If they hadn't done this I presume they would have added an equivalent amount to the austerity measures. Yes it's massively unfair to poor people caught in this but adding to the austerity measures is massively unfair, too, because that's hitting people with nothing at the bank.

Have a you a link for that nearly 50% figure? I've only seen that it makes up £5 billion of the £7 billion. And here's the point which you don't seem to be able to grasp - the £10 billion bail out, the money that's coming if they do the austerity and cuts the IMF and the EU demand (£1.4 billion for starters), guess who it's going to - straight to those same rich russians, they are getting their money back. Even the 'good' component of the current deal is rotten, is theft straight from the pockets of the non-wealthy into the pocket of of the rich.

 

[two sheds]

You've already had it explained that this bailout is not instead of austerity any more than ours was. It is a means of making a banking crisis into a sovereign debt crisis which is then used to justify austerity because the government was reckless with its cash (never mind that Cyprus, Spain and Ireland were all running surpluses before their over-sized banking sectors crashed).

I said added to the austerity. If these measures don't go through then the austerity will be tougher.

You seem to be grasping at straws to justify your initial positive response. Yes, it is good that some of the Russian mafia money will be confiscated in this way. No, it is not good that other savers are being hit precisely because the government wants to keep the Russian mafia money coming in.

Quite a big straw, if those figures are right then it represents nearly 50% Russian money gone to a tax haven and a lot of it laundered.

Yes the Cypriots have been stitched up by the EU. I don't see what else they could have done, though. If you say they could have taxed bonds then yes do that. The other choice would be to default on the loans and leave the EU?

They've at least shown the EU that it has a lot to lose from this deal too, perhaps they can use the chaos to renegotiate the whole package or push the lower limit back up to the original €200,000 that originally seems to have been suggested. That still wouldn't be ideal but people with savings being hit is better than additional stress on people who haven't got savings.

 

[sunny jim]

So is it fair to say the Cyprus banking system is just like a country version of the BCCI?