Cycling in cities / stopping at red lights

[joustmaster]

On my old commute - a 5 mile journey from N4 to SE1 - I would jump 18 out of the 20, depending on traffic and people. I'm still learning my new route so am jumping far less at the moment.

I jump the lights because its quicker. And also to get out of the way of other traffic at a junction before they start maneuvering.

The two times I have been hit by a vehicle has been due to starting at a light and the car behind me trying to overtake me and turn left at the same time.
One of the times I had a strong primary position, and the car had to really work to get round to hit me.

If you know the road and the lights, you can jump them safely, and without inconveniencing anyone else.
Sometimes I am even glad of a red light to jump, as it can make some junctions safer.

I don't recall anyone ever shouting or beeping, although I am sure it must have happened.
Where as, I regularly have a driver bubbling with rage, and sometime threatening me, at my taking of primary position.

I can't abide a cyclist not stopping at a zebra crossing. Thats just being selfish.

 

[craigxcraig]

My commute is 9 miles a day each way and whilst I used to jump don't now - haven't for about five or so years.*

What does annoy me is cyclists who dont/won't get into the asl and form a line down the side of a bus/truck/bin lorry/car - putting themselves and everyone else in danger. The asl is there, use it!

*I will though pull up as far forward as possible, beyond the asl to get a good head start.

 

[BigTom]

I don't think the introduction of ASL supports your argument. Cambridge is not looking to pitch cyclists into oncoming traffic or luckless pedestrians.

ASLs give a space for cyclists to filter into so that they are ahead of traffic and visible.
Head-start greens are basically legalising ahead of phase RLJing, they put cyclists ahead of traffic and visible
ahead of phase RLJing puts cyclists in front of traffic and visible

All looks pretty similar in effect to me. All shitty responses to crap infrastructure.

It's just not true that most red light jumping is due to fear of vehicles behind. It's because those cyclists don't want to slow down.

Aside from at empty pedestrian crossings all the RLJing by cyclists that I see is cyclists stopping at red lights then jumping them ahead of the green phase (sometimes on the pedestrian phase if that's how the light's phasing runs). If they didn't stop they'd get splatted by cross-traffic. It can't be about not slowing down because they stop. Perhaps how cyclists RLJ where you are is very different to what I experience in Birmingham?

edit: actually not quite true, there's one junction where cyclist RLJ in the middle of phases (left turn from Perhsore St -> Hurst st for those in Brum), it's a junction I'm hoping we'll get a protected free left turn lane put in during the next phase of birmingham cycle revolution. It's an odd junction, pershore st is very busy, Hurst st is one way and the other side of Hurst st is no entry and there's never any traffic exiting, it'd be really easy to put a free left turn for cyclists in there so not too surprising that some people decide to act as if there was one (more often than not cutting the pavement rather than the red light but same difference).

It's good for cyclists to be allowed to get ahead at junctions, but it should not be a threat to not to do so. If it's not safe pull over to the side and wait until it is or cross by walking.

It's the same old mantra with some cyclists, 'I broke the rules, but it's your (you car driver's) fault'. I think we have to take more responsibility. Lot's of cyclists jump lights because others do. You are encouraging, normalising. I cycle a lot with my son who is 13. He's a terrific cyclist who also competes. Cycling is his hobby for life. It annoys me that we diligently stop and then others sail by. What am I to hope? That he follows my example, or theirs?

I refer you to post #2, #7 and the bit in my post you replied to where I said that you can get the same advantages without RLJing.
I'd hope your son would follow your example because (a) you're his dad (b) you have the opportunity to explain why following the highway code is generally a virtue and why the reasons that people RLJ are not good enough reasons to break the highway code.

 

[BigTom]

As a pedestrian I'm fed up of dodging bikes as I cross at crossings with green lights. I always look between cars stopped as I've been nearly knocked over by cyclists undertaking or coming up between lines of traffic. You can't see through or over buses, vans and SUVs.
I've seen some horrendous cycling going on - with a bike just ignoring a zebra crossing and going between a toddler and his mum narrowly missing the child and a baby in a pram. gggrrrh!

Please don't do it!

Like OU says, anyone going over a pedestrian crossing on red is a dick and I'm in 100% agreement with your post, but it's a common misconception that cyclists aren't allowed to filter on the left, they are, and they can lane split (filtering in between two lines of traffic heading the same way) as well as filtering past on the right of a traffic jam.

 

[Mr Moose]

Of course not, a metal box with some LEDs in it isn't an overlord that has to be slavishly obeyed.

For cars it is, but try to see it as an act of mutuality rather than subservience.

 

[Blagsta]

No, I don't jump red lights. Jumping red lights isn't about safety, it's about being lazy and anti social.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I stop nearly all of the time. It gives me a rest, plus I seen cops in an unmarked car lifting someone the other week. Is a couple of saved minutes worth the danger?

 

[Crispy]

I stop at every one, getting in front of traffic if I can, waiting in-lane if I can't.

If the road ahead is obviously empty and a pedestrian crossing is red, but the single person who pushed the button has already crossed, I might nip through afterwards, but it's pretty damn rare.

 

[Boycey]

i use the idaho stop unless i'm in the square mile, or the OB are very close to me. your journey takes you straight through the heart of darkness if you're using London bridge- I'd switch it for tower bridge, it's more direct anyway and means you'll have less chance of coming into contact with shitty of london police.

 

[plurker]

and they can lane split (filtering in between two lines of traffic heading the same way) as well as filtering past on the right of a traffic jam.

The amount of times I've been called out for this by drivers is nuts; my stock response is 'I can do it on my Honda, I can do it onanything - check the highway code'

 

[Boycey]

check the highway code'

is always lolworthy when dealing with motorists claiming cyclists can't just pick and choose which bits they follow

 

[Santino]

Do you mean self-righteous? I don't see anyone doing that.

Drivers do it because they think their time is more important than other peoples' safety. Cyclists do it because they are worried (and with good reason) about being hit by a driver crossing the junction.

 

[BigTom]

I don't think that's self-righteous is it? Self-righteous would be "I'm a cyclist and I can do what the fuck I want, who cares about other people" wouldn't it? Or the way some drivers get about "road tax" and the idea that paying that entitles them on the road (can't think of any equivalent with cyclists, maybe some saying that they don't pollute/climate change so can do what they want).

(also to note again that I don't rlj, I've given advice on this thread as to what you can do to not rlj and get the safety advantages of rljing, so even if I've misunderstood what self-righteousness means, it wouldn't be self righteous.)

 

[Santino]

I don't think that's self-righteous is it? Self-righteous would be "I'm a cyclist and I can do what the fuck I want, who cares about other people" wouldn't it? Or the way some drivers get about "road tax" and the idea that paying that entitles them on the road (can't think of any equivalent with cyclists, maybe some saying that they don't pollute/climate change so can do what they want).

(also to note again that I don't rlj, I've given advice on this thread as to what you can do to not rlj and get the safety advantages of rljing, so even if I've misunderstood what self-righteousness means, it wouldn't be self righteous.)

"[A] certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is... morally superior".

 

[joustmaster]

I stop nearly all of the time. It gives me a rest, plus I seen cops in an unmarked car lifting someone the other week. Is a couple of saved minutes worth the danger?

I've had police on foot step out and try and stop me a few times. I don't know how they expect that to work though. They seem to be just relying on asking me to stop, politely. Daft.

A police car once caught up with me and told me i just jumped a light. I said I didn't think that I had, but sounds like something I would do.
I think it was because I had set off a couple of seconds before it turned green.
They just waved me on.

I think the fine is only something like £30. Thats less than a week on the underground, so I'm not so bothered if I get fined.

 

[BigTom]

"[A] certainty, especially an unfounded one, that one is... morally superior".

fair enough, not what I thought it meant.

 

[DownwardDog]

For cars it is, but try to see it as an act of mutuality rather than subservience.

I'm fully capable of deciding whether crossing a junction can be done without endangering myself or anyone without deferring to the judgement of the The Box.

 

[Mr Moose]

I'm fully capable of deciding whether crossing a junction can be done without endangering myself or anyone without deferring to the judgement of the The Box.

So are most car drivers. Most of us are 99.9% of the time.

Hopefully you and others will get lucky on the 1,000th occasion whenever that comes. Hope it doesn't coincide with someone else's lapse.

 

[Quartz]

As a pedestrian I've been the victim of a number of incidents where cyclists thought that red lights did not apply to them. The same penalties apply to all licensed road users - cyclists as well as car drivers.

You wouldn't cross a level crossing when the barriers are down, would you? So why jump a red light?

A couple of links of interest:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/57065/cyclists-almost-likely-injure-pedestrians-cars

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13040607

Pedestrian casualties 2001-09

• Killed by cycles: 18
• Seriously injured by cycles: 434
• Killed by cars: 3,495
• Seriously injured by cars: 46,245

Figures apply to Great Britain. Source: Department for Transport

 

[Mr Moose]

As a pedestrian I've been the victim of a number of incidents where cyclists thought that red lights did not apply to them. The same penalties apply to all licensed road users - cyclists as well as car drivers.

You wouldn't cross a level crossing when the barriers are down, would you? So why jump a red light?

A couple of links of interest:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/57065/cyclists-almost-likely-injure-pedestrians-cars

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13040607

I'm not sure the Paris Roubaix incident has much bearing upon urban cyclists. I'd more question the wisdom of taking a couple of hundred pumped up racers on a route across a level crossing, but yes, pedestrian incidents caused by cyclists shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Mr Moose]

fair enough, not what I thought it meant.

There's not really any difference between one's confident sense of righteousness and self-righteousness either. I can certainly manage both.

 

[Orang Utan]

As a pedestrian I've been the victim of a number of incidents where cyclists thought that red lights did not apply to them. The same penalties apply to all licensed road users - cyclists as well as car drivers.

You wouldn't cross a level crossing when the barriers are down, would you? So why jump a red light?

A couple of links of interest:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/57065/cyclists-almost-likely-injure-pedestrians-cars

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13040607

Not much to do with crossing a red light on a pedestrian crossing in the middle of the night when no one is there

 

[Pickman's model]

As a pedestrian I've been the victim of a number of incidents where cyclists thought that red lights did not apply to them. The same penalties apply to all licensed road users - cyclists as well as car drivers.

You wouldn't cross a level crossing when the barriers are down, would you? So why jump a red light?

A couple of links of interest:

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/57065/cyclists-almost-likely-injure-pedestrians-cars

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13040607

i'm sure Streathamite has some insight into the issue.

 

[joustmaster]

You wouldn't cross a level crossing when the barriers are down, would you? So why jump a red light?

I have and would again - if it was clear that I could pass it safely and without worrying a train driver.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I have and would again - if it was clear that I could pass it safely and without worrying a train driver.

Seriously?. Are you in that much of a rush?

 

[plurker]

If there's a train/tram coming then you need to rush

 

[joustmaster]

Seriously?. Are you in that much of a rush?

its not to do with being in a rush.
I have no interest in pointlessly standing about.

If I can see long empty stretches of track, I will cross it.

Maybe it comes from growing up in a very rural area where most of the line crossings had no gates, and the stations had no bridges or tunnels and you just walked over the tracks.

 

[Orang Utan]

its not to do with being in a rush.
I have no interest in pointlessly standing about.

If I can see long empty stretches of track, I will cross it.

Maybe it comes from growing up in a very rural area where most of the line crossings had no gates, and the stations had no bridges or tunnels and you just walked over the tracks.

You wouldn't say that if the train was a TGV

 

[Pingu]

anyone nabbed the popcorn concession yet?

 

[craigxcraig]

Whilst I'm a reformed RLJ - I really see no issue if the road is clear, like nothing - not a car/lorry/bike/motorbike/jogger/ walker then go for it - as someone says above DownwardDog i can't see an issue.