Cycling in cities / stopping at red lights

[mod]

My company are moving to Old Street, EC1 in a couple of weeks. I've recently bought a new bike and intent to cycle to work from New Cross every day.

On Saturday I done a test run to see how long it takes (27 minutes but I'll get quicker!) and explore a couple of potential quieter routes.

As soon as I got close to London Bridge and over the bridge, I had to constantly stop for red traffic lights which gets frustrating but is/was to be expected and I want to be a conscientious rider respect the road laws and other users etc.

However....it doesn't seem like many other cyclist do. Some do but I'd say most I seen simply ignore red lights if it seems safe to go or cycle on pavements to circumnavigate red lights etc.

On a couple of occasions I was waiting at lights that had turned red to allow pedestrians to cross but there weren't any people crossing so I just thought "sod this" and cycled through those ones.

The other element to this that does worry me are articulated lorries turning left and the terrible amount of fatalities we have in London of cyclist not being seen.

So, be honest city cyclists, do you stop at all red lights? Some? None?

 

[BigTom]

yes, all of them. I get off and walk across a couple of junctions if I think that'll be safer/quicker/preferable to waiting.

 

[maomao]

So, be honest city cyclists, do you stop at all red lights? Some? None?

I used to be a very naughty cyclist and jump lots of red lights but you really do have to know how to do it safely (or 'less dangerously' before some pedantic twat who's swallowed the highway code jumps on me for saying that). My rules were:
a) only on lights that I was very familiar with, never on a new route
b) it's always a potential hazard so always slow down and check all possible directions for traffic or pedestrians, don't just bowl through at full pelt
c) never cross a stream of traffic, only go when completely clear or on the pedestrian part of the cycle
d) never cycle in front of a pedestrians path, only behind, and leave loads of space

I don't cycle any more, partially due to having got 'the fear' but there are many situations where it is safer for a cyclist to move before the rest of the traffic, hence the much ignored ASLs.

 

[Geri]

Not if there is nothing coming, no. Someone in my cycling group on Facebook was stopped at a red light the other week when a bus hit him from behind and knocked him off! Sometimes it is actually safer not to stop. It totally depends on the situation.

 

[mod]

Not if there is nothing coming, no. Someone in my cycling group on Facebook was stopped at a red light the other week when a bus hit him from behind and knocked him off! Sometimes it is actually safer not to stop. It totally depends on the situation.

Do you get other cyclists (or motorists) having a go if you do this?

 

[maomao]

Do you get other cyclists (or motorists) having a go if you do this?

I was once chased down and heckled by another cyclist after jumping onto the pavement and through a red light to get round him at a junction. The only reason I'd done it was because he was stopped in the blind spot of a large lorry and I didn't want to be anywhere near that kind of dangerous nonsense.

 

[BigTom]

I used to be a very naughty cyclist and jump lots of red lights but you really do have to know how to do it safely (or 'less dangerously' before some pedantic twat who's swallowed the highway code jumps on me for saying that). My rules were:
a) only on lights that I was very familiar with, never on a new route
b) it's always a potential hazard so always slow down and check all possible directions for traffic or pedestrians, don't just bowl through at full pelt
c) never cross a stream of traffic, only go when completely clear or on the pedestrian part of the cycle
d) never cycle in front of a pedestrians path, only behind, and leave loads of space

I don't cycle any more, partially due to having got 'the fear' but there are many situations where it is safer for a cyclist to move before the rest of the traffic, hence the much ignored ASLs.

Putting yourself in primary postion, in the middle of the lane, at traffic lights (ASL or not) will mean that you move ahead of the traffic which is held behind you at single lane lights anyway.
It's definitely safer to be in front of the traffic, visible as possible to drivers. You don't have to jump red lights to do that, although at bigger junctions the usefulness of primary position reduces.
It's also why they are introducing cyclist head start traffic lights in Cambridge I think, in leiu of making proper changes to infrastructure, or even to allow all-way green light phases for cyclists.

 

[maomao]

It's definitely safer to be in front of the traffic, visible as possible to drivers. You don't have to jump red lights to do that, although at bigger junctions the usefulness of primary position reduces.

Depends on the driver behind you. A good proportion of them, while screaming blue murder at a cyclist for breaking the HC, will happily ignore it themselves to overtake you on the junction.

 

[plurker]

I stop at every red light on my commute. I've jumped three.

One where I had a car behind me and he beeped as the light went amber, so I knew he was going to jump it and if I stopped he might just plough into me.

One where I had some cnuts in a van were chasing me; I jumped the red, did a illegal turn and rode on the pavement all at once - but the passenger was swinging a krooklock out of the window to try and smack me. Fucked if I'm gonna stop at a light in that scenario

And one where it was late night, like 11.30, and a pedestrian had pushed the button on a crossing, then jaywalked, so the ped crossing went red after they'd already crossed, and there was no-one else about.

 

[BigTom]

Depends on the driver behind you. A good proportion of them, while screaming blue murder at a cyclist for breaking the HC, will happily ignore it themselves to overtake you on the junction.

On bigger junctions yes this can and does happen, but at least they'll have another lane to move into, on smaller junctions they simply can't because of oncoming traffic. I just don't experience this happening (I really can't remember being passed at a junction since using primary regularly, I know it happens don't get me wrong), and I'd be willing to bet that if you RLJd then they'd close pass you after the junction anyway.

 

[maomao]

On bigger junctions yes this can and does happen, but at least they'll have another lane to move into, on smaller junctions they simply can't because of oncoming traffic. I just don't experience this happening (I really can't remember being passed at a junction since using primary regularly, I know it happens don't get me wrong), and I'd be willing to bet that if you RLJd then they'd close pass you after the junction anyway.

Maybe the average driver is a little more cycle aware than when I used to cycle. I haven't been on a bike in nearly a decade now.

 

[Mr Moose]

You shouldn't jump red lights and being threatened with violence as in the above example is the only excuse that comes close.

I don't know how some of you manage to keep your level of righteousness over car drivers going with these daft attitudes. I'm going to presume the daft car drivers I meet are just daft cyclists who gave up and got behind the wheel.

 

[BigTom]

You shouldn't jump red lights and being threatened with violence as in the above example is the only excuse that comes close.

I don't know how some of you manage to keep your level of righteousness over car drivers going with these daft attitudes. I'm going to presume the daft car drivers I meet are just daft cyclists who gave up and got behind the wheel.

Do you mean self-righteous? I don't see anyone doing that.

The introduction of ASLs, and the soon to be introduced cyclist head-start lights, tells you what maomao has said - that getting cyclists off ahead of traffic is safer. I can dig out some stats if you want, but the majority of collisions resulting in deaths or serious injuries occur at junctions (I want to say something like 70% but probably exaggerating slightly cos memory is like that). Cycle around for a while and you'll feel threatened by violence whenever drivers are behind you - and especially beside you - at junctions. There's plenty of deaths that would have been avoided if the cyclist had jumped the lights instead of going at the same time as the left turning HGVs. There is a very good, sadly true, reason why cyclists RLJ ahead of the phase, and it's because of perceived advantages to safety (and it's not entirely a wrong perception, though I think you can get the same advantages most of the time without RLJing).
I don't think that's self-righteous.

What pisses me off about it is how cyclists are singled out for RLJing when drivers are at least as bad, and the way they do it behind the phase is intrinsically far more dangerous than cyclists going ahead of the phase, regardless of the massive weight difference between the two vehicles. Drivers do it because they think their time is more important than other peoples' safety. Cyclists do it because they are worried (and with good reason) about being hit by a driver crossing the junction. Nobody stops for amber anymore either, are you bothered about that? Do you jump amber lights?

If you change the infrastructure, you'll get rid of RLJing. Segregated lanes, seperated phases. I know of one junction near me with separated phases, kind of - there a cycle green phase going one way, cycles + traffic the other (Smallbrook Queensway & Hill St/Hurst St for those of you in Brum). I quite often see cyclists RLJing in the direction with traffic (this is one of the junctions I sometimes walk across), never seen anyone do it coming the other way.

 

[a_chap]

I generally only ever jump red lights between the hours of midnight an 6am. However I am quite often riding at those times.

 

[Roadkill]

When I commuted by bike I did occasionally, but usually only at pedestrian crossings when no-one was actually crossing, almost always on minor/quiet roads and never at busy junctions. IMO jumping red lights is like riding on the pavement: the rules should apply more flexibly than to powered vehicles and sometimes it is right and sensible to do it, but don't be a dick about it and go carefully.

 

[gentlegreen]

I only have one set of lights on my 5.5 mile homeward commute and I constantly worry about the car drivers behind me as they always take the piss.
My commute is short and a lot of the roads are rough so I ride an MTB with flat pedals so I don't go in for ridiculous trackstanding.
I've learned to actually hop off the saddle which is set high for efficiency.
I may eventually cave in and invest in a seatpost with a handlebar release - perhaps when I turn 60 ...

I'm also built for sprinting and I get my exercise that way on a short commute - so I don't have an emotional need to never slow down or stop.

 

[Geri]

Do you get other cyclists (or motorists) having a go if you do this?

Only once, another cyclist was waiting at a red light and shouted at me when I sailed past her. The thing was, there was no other traffic at all on the road, literally nothing, and the lights are only there to stop cars from going under a railway bridge which is too narrow for cars to pass each other. I shouted back "Get a life" and then saw her in Tesco about ten minutes later.

 

[mod]

Only once, another cyclist was waiting at a red light and shouted at me when I sailed past her. The thing was, there was no other traffic at all on the road, literally nothing, and the lights are only there to stop cars from going under a railway bridge which is too narrow for cars to pass each other. I shouted back "Get a life" and then saw her in Tesco about ten minutes later.

Did you have a mutual chuckle or give each other skunk eye?

 

[mod]

I only have one set of lights on my 5.5 mile homeward commute and I constantly worry about the car drivers behind me as they always take the piss.
My commute is short and a lot of the roads are rough so I ride an MTB with flat pedals so I don't go in for ridiculous trackstanding.
I've learned to actually hop off the saddle which is set high for efficiency.
I may eventually cave in and invest in a seatpost with a handlebar release - perhaps when I turn 60 ...

I'm also built for sprinting and I get my exercise that way on a short commute - so I don't have an emotional need to never slow down or stop.

Do you live on Craggy Island?

 

[Mr Moose]

Do you mean self-righteous? I don't see anyone doing that.

The introduction of ASLs, and the soon to be introduced cyclist head-start lights, tells you what maomao has said - that getting cyclists off ahead of traffic is safer. I can dig out some stats if you want, but the majority of collisions resulting in deaths or serious injuries occur at junctions (I want to say something like 70% but probably exaggerating slightly cos memory is like that). Cycle around for a while and you'll feel threatened by violence whenever drivers are behind you - and especially beside you - at junctions. There's plenty of deaths that would have been avoided if the cyclist had jumped the lights instead of going at the same time as the left turning HGVs. There is a very good, sadly true, reason why cyclists RLJ ahead of the phase, and it's because of perceived advantages to safety (and it's not entirely a wrong perception, though I think you can get the same advantages most of the time without RLJing).
I don't think that's self-righteous.

What pisses me off about it is how cyclists are singled out for RLJing when drivers are at least as bad, and the way they do it behind the phase is intrinsically far more dangerous than cyclists going ahead of the phase, regardless of the massive weight difference between the two vehicles. Drivers do it because they think their time is more important than other peoples' safety. Cyclists do it because they are worried (and with good reason) about being hit by a driver crossing the junction. Nobody stops for amber anymore either, are you bothered about that? Do you jump amber lights?

If you change the infrastructure, you'll get rid of RLJing. Segregated lanes, seperated phases. I know of one junction near me with separated phases, kind of - there a cycle green phase going one way, cycles + traffic the other (Smallbrook Queensway & Hill St/Hurst St for those of you in Brum). I quite often see cyclists RLJing in the direction with traffic (this is one of the junctions I sometimes walk across), never seen anyone do it coming the other way.

I don't think the introduction of ASL supports your argument. Cambridge is not looking to pitch cyclists into oncoming traffic or luckless pedestrians.

It's just not true that most red light jumping is due to fear of vehicles behind. It's because those cyclists don't want to slow down.

It's good for cyclists to be allowed to get ahead at junctions, but it should not be a threat to not to do so. If it's not safe pull over to the side and wait until it is or cross by walking.

It's the same old mantra with some cyclists, 'I broke the rules, but it's your (you car driver's) fault'. I think we have to take more responsibility. Lot's of cyclists jump lights because others do. You are encouraging, normalising. I cycle a lot with my son who is 13. He's a terrific cyclist who also competes. Cycling is his hobby for life. It annoys me that we diligently stop and then others sail by. What am I to hope? That he follows my example, or theirs?

 

[Geri]

Did you have a mutual chuckle or give each other skunk eye?

I think we carefully avoided each other.

 

[maomao]

I generally only ever jump red lights between the hours of midnight an 6am. However I am quite often riding at those times.

When I worked a late shift finishing at 2am I used to have to jump one set of lights over a dual carriageway because it was one of those with a magnetic sensor under the road that only triggers for fucking great lumps of metal like cars.

 

[gentlegreen]

Do you live on Craggy Island?

Bristol is a bit hilly and my commute takes me through a small river valley.

 

[mod]

Bristol is a bit hilly and my commute takes me through a small river valley.

View attachment 70163

I get to ride past Millwall F.C

 

[friendofdorothy]

As a pedestrian I'm fed up of dodging bikes as I cross at crossings with green lights. I always look between cars stopped as I've been nearly knocked over by cyclists undertaking or coming up between lines of traffic. You can't see through or over buses, vans and SUVs.
I've seen some horrendous cycling going on - with a bike just ignoring a zebra crossing and going between a toddler and his mum narrowly missing the child and a baby in a pram. gggrrrh!

Please don't do it!

 

[Orang Utan]

As a pedestrian I'm fed up of dodging bikes as I cross at crossings with green lights. I always look between cars stopped as I've been nearly knocked over by cyclists undertaking or coming up between lines of traffic. You can't see through or over buses, vans and SUVs.
I've seen some horrendous cycling going on - with a bike just ignoring a zebra crossing and going between a toddler and his mum narrowly missing the child and a baby in a pram. gggrrrh!

Please don't do it!

that's just being a dick, but you can jump red lights without endangering anyone else or yourself - i would jump a red light if no one was there, esp at night. but only really at crossings. at crossroads, you just never know if something's going to come out of nowhere, esp an emergency vehicle at speed.

 

[Mr Moose]

that's just being a dick, but you can jump red lights without endangering anyone else or yourself - i would jump a red light if no one was there, esp at night. but only really at crossings. at crossroads, you just never know if something's going to come out of nowhere, esp an emergency vehicle at speed.

If it's red why not just dismount, walk 10 yards on the pavement/cross the road and then carry on. Safe, quick and no need to jump a light.

 

[Orang Utan]

If it's red why not just dismount, walk 10 yards on the pavement/cross the road and then carry on. Safe, quick and no need to jump a light.

It's a faff

 

[mod]

If it's red why not just dismount, walk 10 yards on the pavement/cross the road and then carry on. Safe, quick and no need to jump a light.

I guess people think by the time they've done that the lights will have changed do its basically impatients in that scenario.

But if it's at a pedestrian crossing that has no pedestrians crossing....what's the point of not jumping the light? What's the harm?

 

[DownwardDog]

So, be honest city cyclists, do you stop at all red lights?

Of course not, a metal box with some LEDs in it isn't an overlord that has to be slavishly obeyed.