critique of loon theories around banking/money creation/the federal reserve

[ItWillNeverWork]

If so, I'm not the artist.

In terms of debate, I've honestly never seen such a one-sided thread in my life. For those who can't be bothered reading it, it goes like this:

Jazzz: "Look the banks are stealing from us by inventing fictional forms of money."
Mob: "Stop blaming the Jews for everything, you anti-semite."
Jazzz: "No really, it's true. Look at this, and this, and this, and this."
Mob: "In 1937 Henry Ford wiped his bum with an article that used a similar phrase about Mrs. Goldberg's little boy. Why are you blaming the Jews?"
Dwyer: "Jazzz is right actually. Have you read any of these interesting new books that explain why?"
Mob: "Hahahahahahahaha... I'm mad I am.... down with Cicero...."

You can probably guess the rest.

Phil, the topic of banking is not itself inherently anti-Semitic, and it's not talking about banks and interest that makes people suspicious of you or Jazzz . It's the use of certain words and phrases, and the links to dodgy sources, that raises eyebrows. Even using the term 'usury' as opposed to simply 'interest' rings alarm bells in my mind. And when you then go on to talk about 'Shylocks' who should be 'thrown into the Tiber in a sack full of vipers like the good old days', you just make things worse for yourself. For someone who often talks about the symbolic power of money (or whatever it is you waffle on about), you would think that you might grasp the symbolic power of words, and the signifiers that are attached to them.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

This entire thread is fucking disgusting.

 

[phildwyer]

But that does seem to be looking at the trees and so missing the wood - the underlying processes that they're just the latest phenomenon to emerge out of.

That's how the law of quantitative change becoming qualitative change works though isn't it.

At first, as the name implies, derivatives are merely "derived from" some allegedly more "real" underlying commodity.

And then, after a certain point which the Western economy passed about 5 years ago when the bunch of clowns here assembled were too busy reading Father Coughlin to notice, they become autonomous and powerful in themselves.

It's a process repeated by all forms of money, though at far greater velocity now than was possible before, and therefore also with far greater danger, on account of computers and that.

 

[butchersapron]

This entire thread is fucking disgusting.

In what way?

 

[phildwyer]

This entire thread is fucking disgusting.

I like a man who lives up to his tagline.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

In what way?

25 pages of circle jerking, name calling, and bullying.

On both sides.


Yay Urbanz!

 

[frogwoman]

it's not bullying to expose it when people are saying dodgy shit about an international banking conspiracy. and if somebody thinks it is, tough fucking shit.

 

[phildwyer]

Phil, the topic of banking is not itself inherently anti-Semitic, and it's not talking about banks and interest that makes people suspicious of you or Jazzz . It's the use of certain words and phrases, and the links to dodgy sources, that raises eyebrows. Even using the term 'usury' as opposed to simply 'interest' rings alarm bells in my mind. And when you then go on to talk about 'Shylocks' who should be 'thrown into the Tiber in a sack full of vipers like the good old days', you just make things worse for yourself. For someone who often talks about the symbolic power of money (or whatever it is you waffle on about), you would think that you might grasp the symbolic power of words, and the signifiers that are attached to them.

I do grasp them, and I always choose them carefully.

You might want to consider why I choose the words I do. That's consider.

 

[frogwoman]

Phil is a troll and amusing to argue with because he doesn't really believe any of it.

 

[butchersapron]

25 pages of circle jerking, name calling, and bullying.

On both sides.


Yay Urbanz!

Oh i thought you may have meant Jazzz's repeated enthusiastic endorsement of openly anti-semitic material from an openly anti-semitic mag produced by a mass anti-semitic movement in the 1930s. And i do not believe for a second that you have read this thread. Have you?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Oh i thought you may have meant Jazzz's repeated enthusiastic endorsement of openly anti-semitic material from an openly anti-semitic mag produced by a mass anti-semitic movement in the 1930s. And i do not believe for a second that you have read this thread. Have you?

I have, actually. The tone from the outset was begging for a bun fight.

 

[butchersapron]

I have, actually. The tone from the outset was begging for a bun fight.

Then you are just simply talking bollocks i'm afraid. Look at the OP - it's a request for info about how to intelligently a persistent source of trouble in anti-capitalist approaches and there followed discussion on just that topic.

 

[frogwoman]

so what? these people need more than a bun fight frankly.

i'm not having people thinking it's all right to stir up hatred because of a banking conspiracy that exists only in their heads. it's never more than three steps away.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I do grasp them, and I always choose them carefully.

You might want to consider why I choose the words I do. That's consider.

Pray tell.

 

[butchersapron]

I have, actually. The tone from the outset was begging for a bun fight.

There wasn't even any hint of disagreement until page 5 which was what 10 months after the bun-fight begging OP. You sure that you've read it?

 

[phildwyer]

Pray tell.

Because I thought you might want to consider it.

 

[binka]

25 pages of circle jerking, name calling, and bullying.

On both sides.


Yay Urbanz!

stop bullying me with your facts!

 

[TruXta]

That's how the law of quantitative change becoming qualitative change works though isn't it.

At first, as the name implies, derivatives are merely "derived from" some allegedly more "real" underlying commodity.

And then, after a certain point which the Western economy passed about 5 years ago when the bunch of clowns here assembled were too busy reading Father Coughlin to notice, they become autonomous and powerful in themselves.

It's a process repeated by all forms of money, though at far greater velocity now than was possible before, and therefore also with far greater danger, on account of computers and that.

Derivatives are on par with insurance, in fact that's more or less how it started with options on agro-products back in the 17th century. I suppose insurance is a pernicious Jewish conspiracy too? But then again don't let facts get in the way of your tugging.

 

[phildwyer]

Derivatives are on par with insurance, in fact that's more or less how it started with options on agro-products back in the 18th century. I suppose insurance is a pernicious Jewish conspiracy too?

Seriously, why do you keep mentioning "Jewish" this and "Jew" that, Truxta?

 

[TruXta]

Seriously, why do you keep mentioning "Jewish" this and "Jew" that, Truxta?

Only following in your path, Master Debater.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Because I thought you might want to consider it.

I did consider it, and I came to the conclusion it was dodgy as fuck. If you were attempting to make some oh so clever comment on the nature of antisemitism, then you might want to make yourself a bit more clear. At the best of times, the internet is a poor platform for communicating subtleties as there is no vocal intonation, body language or background knowledge on the person writing. So just spit it out instead of expecting people to be able to read your mind.

 

[phildwyer]

Derivatives are on par with insurance, in fact that's more or less how it started with options on agro-products back in the 18th century.

"It" he says.

No, derivatives are not "on par with insurance," you tosser. Not unless you count buying fire insurance on your neighbor's house and then burning it down. That is what a CDO does (look it up).

 

[TruXta]

"It" he says.

No, derivatives are not "on par with insurance," you tosser. Not unless you count buying fire insurance on your neighbor's house and then burning it down.

So you admit to not having a clue about what derivatives are, where they came from and so on then. Glad that's sorted.

 

[frogwoman]

I did consider it, and I came to the conclusion it was dodgy as fuck. If you were attempting to make some oh so clever comment on the nature of antisemitism, then you might want to make yourself a bit more clear. At the best of times, the internet is a poor platform for communicating subtleties as there is no vocal intonation, body language or background knowledge on the person writing. So just spit it out instead of expecting people to be able to read your mind.

witches, symbols, usury, lesbians, arguments for the existence of god

 

[phildwyer]

I did consider it, and I came to the conclusion it was dodgy as fuck.

That's right, you did, didn't you?

And this is my problem how?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

And this is my problem how?

Because now everyone thinks you're a closet racist.

 

[phildwyer]

So you admit to not having a clue about what derivatives are, where they came from and so on then. Glad that's sorted.

No, I know that you don't. Look them up on Wiki and get back to us, like you did with Calvin and Confucius. After all you came out of those disputes looking pretty good didn't you?

 

[phildwyer]

Because now everyone thinks you're a closet racist.

And I would care what you think because?

 

[TruXta]

No, I know that you don't. Look them up on Wiki and get back to us, like you did with Calvin and Confucius. After all you came out of those disputes looking pretty good didn't you?

Yeah I did, a lot better than you in fact.

 

[phildwyer]

Yeah I did, a lot better than you in fact.

OK, the insanity level is already a leedle bit too high for this time of the morning. I'm going for coffee.