Creating "Lexit": What is to be done?

[redsquirrel]

Yes. I can read what you are writing.

You may be reading it but you certainly aren't engaging with it. I've repeatedly said that the only force capable of bringing about improved conditions is labour and you ask me (my emphasis)

How would you put a government in place that might build council houses put in rent controls & raise benefit levels to avoid impoverishing the most vunerable in society?

yet again you are reducing politics to party politics.

I, and danny, have repeatedly made the point that the welfare state wasn't brought about by a Labour government but by the power of the working class. And the same applies today, if there is a roll-back of some aspects of neo-liberalism (and note that the LP is only promising really rather minor roll-backs) it won't be down to a Labour government but the actions of workers.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

A Corbyn government would be the target of attacks from global capital, and of sabotage from its own neo-liberals (with Brexit a likely casus belli) if it actually tried to do any of that stuff.

So even if one grants that it would be a positive shift (and I'd say that it would be) it's far from a realistic solution to austerity and other ills of the 2010's by itself.

Significant extra-parliamentary forces would also need to be pushing in complementary directions to have a hope in hell of getting any significant improvements.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I, and danny, have repeatedly made the point that the welfare state wasn't brought about by a Labour government but by the power of the working class. And the same applies today, if there is a roll-back of some aspects of neo-liberalism (and note that the LP is only promising really rather minor roll-backs) it won't be down to a Labour government but the actions of workers.

It will be the actions of the workers who will vote in a Labour government but it will be for the elected government to carry out what their voters expect from them. The welfare state was brought about by a Labour government who delivered what it promised after being voted in by the workers. The Labour party itself came about by the power of the working class. Is this the pedantic hair splitting argument you have been presenting all along? What fucking difference does it make? You still need a Labour government in place to carry out what the working class demands. The Tories will certainly not deliver it & starting a new left wing party would only split votes & let the Tories back in. You do actually want a Labour government elected at next GE do you? Or don’t you?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

A Corbyn government would be the target of attacks from global capital, and of sabotage from its own neo-liberals (with Brexit a likely casus belli) if it actually tried to do any of that stuff.

So even if one grants that it would be a positive shift (and I'd say that it would be) it's far from a realistic solution to austerity and other ills of the 2010's by itself.

Significant extra-parliamentary forces would also need to be pushing in complementary directions to have a hope in hell of getting any significant improvements.

Yes your point is logical but pessimistic. If one wants to be optimistic one might hope the Blairite wing of Labour will come to accept that the voters voted for a government led by Corbyn & come together & work together. Again being optimistic I think some parts of global capital are coming to realise that the failure of capitalism is its failure to distrute wealth more evenly & that things must change.

As for brexit I would say a brexit of the Tory right is a far bigger danger to the w/c than a brexit of the Labout left & pragmatically that is the choice.

 

[Winot]

What is the way forward here & now in the UK then?

You’re not going to get an answer to this, you know. On your side of the debate is a need for practical solutions that help the working class and on the other side is the need for ideological purity. Any grappling with the messy real world risks that purity being sullied.

 

[redsquirrel]

It will be the actions of the workers who will vote in a Labour government but it will be for the elected government to carry out what their voters expect from them. The welfare state was brought about by a Labour government who delivered what it promised after being voted in by the workers. The Labour party itself came about by the power of the working class. Is this the pedantic hair splitting argument you have been presenting all along? What fucking difference does it make? You still need a Labour government in place to carry out what the working class demands. The Tories will certainly not deliver it & starting a new left wing party would only split votes & let the Tories back in. You do actually want a Labour government elected at next GE do you? Or don’t you?

It's not pedantic hair splitting it's part of the core difference between liberalism and socialism, whether the working class are the driving force (as I believe) or passengers to be driven to correct destination by the LP (as you've argued). This is reflected in your constant reduction of politics to party politics, that politics is about nothing more than getting a Labour Government elected. Despite the fact that history shows that the LP (and it's equivalents) have sold out the workers time and time again. And your subsuming of working class power to getting the LP elected is inviting another such betrayal.

As has already been explained you multiple times the power of the working class brought about the post-war consensus that created the welfare state. A post-war consensus that delivered similar outcomes throughout the west, often under centre-right governments (UK 51-64, Australian 49-72, NZ 49-57, 60-72, de Gaulle in France, etc).

What's particularly ironic about your position is that for all their faults I don't think either Corbyn or McDonnell would share it, I think both know that politics is far wider than the narrow limits that you seek to restrict it to and that the LP exists to serve the movement not the other way around.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

You’re not going to get an answer to this, you know. On your side of the debate is a need for practical solutions that help the working class and on the other side is the need for ideological purity. Any grappling with the messy real world risks that purity being sullied.

Yes. Thats about it. Some posters see this all as a hobby or pastime, I think. They post up links to impenetrable heavy going historical articles that bear little relevance to the here & now. Do most working class people read that sort of stuff? I don’t think many do. Those on low incomes with their living standards dropping & disabled people with their benefits being cut causing their impoverishment just want a government that will raise their living standards. Making the benefits system fairer is something an incoming government could do quickly.

redsquirrel Of course the LP exists to serve the movement. It was created by the movement but in order for the LP to serve the movement they need to be elected to government. If that happens then it will be by working class consensus. I would expect Corbyn & McDonnell to know more about politics than me because they are politicians which is why me & millions who share my view would like them in government to at least give them a chance to deliver what they promise. If you think that is all bollocks then carry on with your political studies & when you find a better way for the UK in the here & now please post it up.

 

[danny la rouge]

You’re not going to get an answer to this, you know. On your side of the debate is a need for practical solutions that help the working class and on the other side is the need for ideological purity. Any grappling with the messy real world risks that purity being sullied.

Have you read the thread? Because the answer is given many times.

 

[Winot]

Have you read the thread? Because the answer is given many times.

Sorry, I thought this was the other Brexit thread (which I have read). I haven't read this one - will go back and do so.

 

[danny la rouge]

Sorry, I thought this was the other Brexit thread (which I have read). I haven't read this one - will go back and do so.

You may disagree with the answers given, of course, but they are given.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Have you read the thread? Because the answer is given many times.

Reading through the thread there are suggestions of mass protest & so on but recent & less recent history shows that mass protest & demonstration plays into the hands of the ‘law ‘n order’ Tories. In fact going back to the 80s Thatcher aided by the right wing press that in those days was widely read set worker against worker by claiming strikers were interfering with the freedoms of other workers. Where protest does work is like the poll tax where most people see it as wrong not just a sizeable minority. Right now plenty would like the Tories to stay in power if only because they think it more likely to protect the value of their paid for houses but plenty of others would like a Labour government to provide fairer benefits & affordable housing.

Imo there is more chance of political change now than at anytime in the last nearly 40yrs but to bring about that change needs careful planning & excecution. It is not quite a done deal & it will probably take the votes of those who previously believed that voting served them no purpose to swing it. Fewer people read the right wing press now but plenty more use social media so I guess that is the direction successful campagining must take nowadays rather than setting fire to things.

When this thread this was started lexit was seen by many as a fanciful thing that would never be possible & several posters indicated as much. That all changed at the last GE & now a practical & doable lexit as in brexit with a Labour government in power is a definite reality. So yes. Real world here & now solutions. Whats wrong with that?

 

[JimW]

It's not that though, it's the basic point that whatever Labour administrations achieved in the past has to be put in the context of a wider workers movement and the international situation at the time. It's hardly controversial.

 

[DotCommunist]

unfortunately pointing out anything that happened before 2010 is now apparently being a hobbyist and any analysis deeper than a guardian article is impenetrable politics for pointy headed experts.

apparently winot is now the voice of the working class as well which is pretty funny

 

[J Ed]

Than?

Here's a brief comparison Callaghan/Corbyn.

Callaghan

Top tax band in 1974-79 = 83%

All energy companies publicly owned

BP publicly owned

British Steel publicly owned

BA publicly owned

National bus company publicly owned

GPO (including telecommunications) publicly owned


Corbyn

Re-introduce the 50p rate of tax on the highest earners

Create at least one publicly-owned energy company in every region of the UK, with public control of the transmission and distribution grids.

No plans

No plans

No plans

No plans

No plan to renationalise telecommunications

There are other, more worrying, things vis-a-vis Corbyn-led Labour and even the Major or Thatcher governments. Take education for example, Rayner has started to row back from the manifesto campaign promise of the re-nationalisation of comprehensive education and the abolition of academies. That's a Syriza-style capitulation, the sort that the likes of Paul Mason is loudly campaigning for over whatever Quixotic foreign policy horror he is banging on about this week, and it's one conceded without power being taken or a shot being fired.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

unfortunately pointing out anything that happened before 2010 is now apparently being a hobbyist and any analysis deeper than a guardian article is impenetrable politics for pointy headed experts.

apparently winot is now the voice of the working class as well which is pretty funny

Oh come on. Real world outside forums like this. If you want people onside then it needs to be in sensible relatable terms that be can read & understood quickly. Not because people are stupid but because most have better things to do than politics as a hobby.

 

[Winot]

unfortunately pointing out anything that happened before 2010 is now apparently being a hobbyist and any analysis deeper than a guardian article is impenetrable politics for pointy headed experts.

apparently winot is now the voice of the working class as well which is pretty funny

Never claimed that. Cheap shot.

I can of course go back to my comfortable ‘boojie’ lifestyle and leave you to talk amongst yourselves if you like.

 

[J Ed]

Not sure I've seen anyone on here use the term boojie before

 

[JimW]

Don't blame it on the sunshine, don't blame it on the moonlight...

 

[Winot]

Not sure I've seen anyone on here use the term boojie before

Looks like I spelt it wrong. I never was much good at talking street.

not done it for a few years but boojy house price conversations and/or family music jams. no.

 

[DotCommunist]

yanks seem to spell it bougie but thats too close to bogey for me

 

[J Ed]

Looks like I spelt it wrong. I never was much good at talking street.

Not sure that 'bougie' counts as very 'street'!

 

[J Ed]

yanks seem to spell it bougie but thats too close to bogey for me

I honestly have never heard it said out loud, I have read it but only in relation to black writers talking about class divides amongst black Americans and even then really sparingly and recently. Actually I think that the writer I have seen that uses it the most is Coates. Not that any of this matters, not trying to get at Winot.

 

[mojo pixy]

Bougie is French for candle, fwiw

 

[danny la rouge]

Looks like I spelt it wrong. I never was much good at talking street.

DotCommunist was being completely serious there and you have him bang to rights.

As for me, I've never heard "bourgie" said out loud. I did once hear a market trader in Uttoxeter tell someone the perfume they were about to buy was "bourgeoise". I thought "brilliant a Marxist market trader: I must have a chat", only to be disappointed to find out that this was a fragrance brand and not a class analysis.

 

[mojo pixy]

oh blimey, was Bourgie the word being looked for? lol 'bodgewah'

 

[Yossarian]

When this thread this was started lexit was seen by many as a fanciful thing that would never be possible & several posters indicated as much. That all changed at the last GE & now a practical & doable lexit as in brexit with a Labour government in power is a definite reality. So yes. Real world here & now solutions. Whats wrong with that?

Is that what happened? What I thought happened was that there was an election where the Conservative Party won the most seats and came so close to losing power that they will do everything they can to make sure there isn't another election until 2022.

That means that the Conservative Party and their DUP allies will be managing the British exit from the EU over the next few years and a Lexit is as unlikely as a Monster Raving Looxit, unless there are some important developments and changes to the Fixed-Term Parliament Act that I've missed.

 

[DotCommunist]

Is that what happened? What I thought happened was that there was an election where the Conservative Party won the most seats and came so close to losing power that they will do everything they can to make sure there isn't another election until 2022.

That means that the Conservative Party and their DUP allies will be managing the British exit from the EU over the next few years and a Lexit is as unlikely as a Monster Raving Looxit, unless there are some important developments that I've missed.

well a year is a long time in politics and we've got five. couyrse fixed term means its easier than ever before for the incumbent to hang on by the skin of their teeth. What would it require now, vote of no confidence...and there was something else, not resignation because that would just mean a change of leader rather than a GE...

 

[J Ed]

Is that what happened? What I thought happened was that there was an election where the Conservative Party won the most seats and came so close to losing power that they will do everything they can to make sure there isn't another election until 2022.

That means that the Conservative Party and their DUP allies will be managing the British exit from the EU over the next few years and a Lexit is as unlikely as a Monster Raving Looxit, unless there are some important developments that I've missed.

It's a very unstable government, and anyone who predicts anything with any certainty is being foolish. The government could fall tomorrow, the EU itself is not very stable. International capitalism is well overdue a recession, very many people are in very desperate situations across the Western world while the economy is 'booming'. Throw economic instability into that mix and what will we get? Add into that just how much discontent there is amongst the police, who are now fascinatingly being attacked in the Murdoch press in the same way that other more traditional public sector targets are normally attacked. Not saying that this is October 1917 or something ridiculous like that, but extraparliamentary factors can't be entirely discounted.

I think that what you have suggested is the most likely scenario but it also means that following the next election that the next most likely scenario is Britain outside the EU under a Labour led government with Corbyn as PM. Whether you consider that a Lexit or not is up to you, but if you do then I think that Lexit is very likely indeed.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Is that what happened? What I thought happened was that there was an election where the Conservative Party won the most seats and came so close to losing power that they will do everything they can to make sure there isn't another election until 2022.

That means that the Conservative Party and their DUP allies will be managing the British exit from the EU over the next few years and a Lexit is as unlikely as a Monster Raving Looxit, unless there are some important developments that I've missed.

Possibly they will hang on until 2022 who knows? Nobody can guess what will happen in 2018 considering this year started with many believing we were heading for a one party tory state. Whenever the GE comes unless the Tories build large council estates, bring in rent controls & make the benefits system fair I think Labour will win it. Then we will have brexit under a Labour government which may well be called lexit.

I think we will have a GE well before 2022 though. It is difficult to see how the type of government we have now can hang on that long.

 

[DotCommunist]

then theres the boundry changes to consider, I thought that would all be quietly long grassed after the bad results for the tories but theres still talk of it in the papers. DUP seats possibly affected, who knows.