Creating "Lexit": What is to be done?

[Yossarian]

I think we will have a GE well before 2022 though. It is difficult to see how the type of government we have now can hang on that long.

A GE that Corbyn wins well before 2022 is what I would like to see happen, but I just can't see the circumstances arising under which two-thirds of MPs would vote to make that happen. They're going to cling to power like limpets and they'll probably get the Lib Dems to crawl on board at some point.

But OK, for the purposes of this thread, I'll call a hypothetical post-Brexit Labour government a Lexit.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes. Thats about it. Some posters see this all as a hobby or pastime, I think. They post up links to impenetrable heavy going historical articles that bear little relevance to the here & now. Do most working class people read that sort of stuff? I don’t think many do. Those on low incomes with their living standards dropping & disabled people with their benefits being cut causing their impoverishment just want a government that will raise their living standards. Making the benefits system fairer is something an incoming government could do quickly.

You’re not going to get an answer to this, you know. On your side of the debate is a need for practical solutions that help the working class and on the other side is the need for ideological purity. Any grappling with the messy real world risks that purity being sullied.

And of course it's not ideological to reduce politics to party politics, to reduce democracy to representative parliamentary democracy, to talk about free trade and economic growth, to ignore the past history of betrayal of the working class by the LP, etc.

redsquirrel Of course the LP exists to serve the movement. It was created by the movement but in order for the LP to serve the movement they need to be elected to government.

Do they, why? You are parroting the exact same line as the New Labourites that you claim to despise. But I guess it must be practical to make the actions of Labour entirely dependant on Westminster governance, as you can then ignore the record of attacks on the working class given in opposition or in local government.

If that happens then it will be by working class consensus.

Again a line that could have come direct from the (New) Labour right, the working class=the party, the views of the working class must be the views of the LP. Utterly amazing, is there a working class consensus in Birmingham for the attack on workers? Is there are working class consensus in Lewisham for the CPO of land for a gentrification project?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I genuinely don’t get the point you are trying to make? Yes the workers, the voters decide. They decide who to vote for within the confines of the political system in this country. Are you suggesting a new left wing political party should be formed to smash down the entire structure of the LP that the workers created in the first place & has failed them? The record for new poltical parties in this country is poor. They don’t succeed under our fpp voting system. Is it not better to work to change the LP from within. As is being done now with Haringey LP deselecting councillors & putting in more left wing candidates?

 

[seventh bullet]

Yes. Thats about it. Some posters see this all as a hobby or pastime, I think. They post up links to impenetrable heavy going historical articles that bear little relevance to the here & now. Do most working class people read that sort of stuff? I don’t think many do. Those on low incomes with their living standards dropping & disabled people with their benefits being cut causing their impoverishment just want a government that will raise their living standards. Making the benefits system fairer is something an incoming government could do quickly.

redsquirrel Of course the LP exists to serve the movement. It was created by the movement but in order for the LP to serve the movement they need to be elected to government. If that happens then it will be by working class consensus. I would expect Corbyn & McDonnell to know more about politics than me because they are politicians which is why me & millions who share my view would like them in government to at least give them a chance to deliver what they promise. If you think that is all bollocks then carry on with your political studies & when you find a better way for the UK in the here & now please post it up.

Why do you talk about people like me and people I know as if we're not interested in political 'theory'? Or shouldn't be. As if it wasn't from the experiences of what you talk about above but have never lived that brought me and others to it?

 

[J Ed]

Why do you talk about people like me and people I know as if we're not interested in political 'theory'? Or shouldn't be. As if it wasn't from the experiences of what you talk about above but have never lived that brought me and others to it?

Also implicit here is the idea that people who aren't working-class, or who are but imagine themselves not to be, immerse themselves in theory. Obviously this is not the case, or you wouldn't get so many centrists saying that neoliberalism doesn't exist or that they don't know what it is or both.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Why do you talk about people like me and people I know as if we're not interested in political 'theory'? Or shouldn't be. As if it wasn't from the experiences of what you talk about above but have never lived that brought me and others to it?

I’m actually talking about people like me & people I know. I read political theory but I find it heavy going & I find it difficult to find any relevance to the here & now & what changes are needed right now. I was about in the 1970s & the sum total of all that went on then with strikes just set worker against worker. Closed shops that barred anybody from better paid work unless they had a relative working there & so on. The workers failed to be united then. Politics needs to be relevant to the here & now to get enough people engaged imo.

The result was after the winter of discontent the election of a Tory government that changed the face of this country. That cycle is coming to an end. The failure of the last nearly 40yrs can be seen in clear sight. The Tories can no longer argue their case by saying stick with them & it will get better because people do not believe them anymore. There is now an opportunity for change. Nothing is certain. There are plenty who would rather stay with what they know but there should be enough votes to at least put those in government who claim they can bring about change. I cannot see a viable alternative in this short time frame than the election of a Labour government. Can you?

 

[seventh bullet]

Also implicit here is the idea that people who aren't working-class, or who are but imagine themselves not to be, immerse themselves in theory. Obviously this is not the case, or you wouldn't get so many centrists saying that neoliberalism doesn't exist or that they don't know what it is or both.

There's middle class paternalism too.

We aren't anomalous, weird deviants who need to 'get real,' as in having no interest in or ability to understand the world beyond anecdata.

You have to get used to being told what isn't for you, what you are allowed to be in the eyes of others, what is done on your behalf, but I never get tired of saying get fucked.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

There's middle class paternalism too.

We aren't anomalous, weird deviants who need to 'get real,' as in having no interest in or ability to understand the world beyond anecdata.

You have to get used to being told what isn't for you, what you are allowed to be in the eyes of others, what is done on your behalf, but I never get tired of saying get fucked.

Stop seeing this as an a personal attack on those with enough interest in politics to do plenty of reading. It is just that most people don’t do that. They have other interests. If you want people onside then you have to go to them & put your points across to them in a time frame that they can provide for you which probably is not that long. Social media appears to be the way for that now. Labour appears to be well ahead of the game with that than the Tories & Labour need to gain from that advantage.

 

[seventh bullet]

I’m actually talking about people like me & people I know. I read political theory but I find it heavy going & I find it difficult to find any relevance to the here & now & what changes are needed right now. I was about in the 1970s & the sum total of all that went on then with strikes just set worker against worker. Closed shops that barred anybody from better paid work unless they had a relative working there & so on. The workers failed to be united then. Politics needs to be relevant to the here & now to get enough people engaged imo.

The result was after the winter of discontent the election of a Tory government that changed the face of this country. That cycle is coming to an end. The failure of the last nearly 40yrs can be seen in clear sight. The Tories can no longer argue their case by saying stick with them & it will get better because people do not believe them anymore. There is now an opportunity for change. Nothing is certain. There are plenty who would rather stay with what they know but there should be enough votes to at least put those in government who claim they can bring about change. I cannot see a viable alternative in this short time frame than the election of a Labour government. Can you?

So side-burned cliches about 'bad' unions and the belief that only voting transforms the world.

 

[JimW]

It's not even heavy political theory though SaskiaJayne, just the obvious thing that the Labour Party will be pushed by the state of a wider movement not running ahead of it.

 

[seventh bullet]

Stop seeing this as an a personal attack on those with enough interest in politics to do plenty of reading. It is just that most people don’t do that. They have other interests. If you want people onside then you have to go to them & put your points across to them in a time frame that they can provide for you which probably is not that long. Social media appears to be the way for that now. Labour appears to be well ahead of the game with that than the Tories & Labour need to gain from that advantage.

Well, you were setting yourself up as quite the online conduit of PFWC thought and action.

Why do you think I have plenty of leisure time?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

So side-burned cliches about 'bad' unions and the belief that only voting transforms the world.

I was pointing out what probably caused the election of a Tory government in 1979. The 43 majority they achieved was not huge & could have well been caused by the rubbish rotting in the streets. If that had not happened we may have had a much better & fairer society now. It shows how easily seismic political events can occur & in that case so voting did transform this country at least.

Your reference to ‘side-burned cliches’ suggests you do not have much time for the past either.

 

[redsquirrel]

I genuinely don’t get the point you are trying to make? Yes the workers, the voters decide. They decide who to vote for within the confines of the political system in this country. Are you suggesting a new left wing political party should be formed to smash down the entire structure of the LP that the workers created in the first place & has failed them? The record for new poltical parties in this country is poor. They don’t succeed under our fpp voting system. Is it not better to work to change the LP from within. As is being done now with Haringey LP deselecting councillors & putting in more left wing candidates?

I'm saying that politics is far, far wider than party/electoral politics, I'm saying that the politics of working class should not be confined to who, if anyone, to vote for. And that by reducing politics to party/electoral politics you are helping capital rather than labour. Is the only choice, Labour or another party? Or going on a protest? Why are you restricting politics to these few options?

But even more than that I'm criticising you putting the (Labour) party ahead of the class. Personally I don't think it is a good use of people's time and efforts to get involved with Labour but there are people I consider comrades who have become members. The key, however, is that they recognise that the LP is only a vehicle, that the real driving force is the working class.

I was pointing out what probably caused the election of a Tory government in 1979. The 43 majority they achieved was not huge & could have well been caused by the rubbish rotting in the streets. If that had not happened we may have had a much better & fairer society now. It shows how easily seismic political events can occur & in that case so voting did transform this country at least.

And yet just as throughout the west in the 40s/50s there was the post-war consensus that led to the development of the welfare state, there was an attack on the welfare state throughout the west starting in the mid to late 70s/early 80s. So perhaps the neo-liberal politics that attacked the welfare state arose from something bigger than a Conservative government.

Moreover, as danny la rouge, the breakdown of the post-war consensus was not limited to the Conservatives, the Labour government of Callaghan started attacking the workers before 79.

 

[seventh bullet]

I was pointing out what probably caused the election of a Tory government in 1979. The 43 majority they achieved was not huge & could have well been caused by the rubbish rotting in the streets. If that had not happened we may have had a much better & fairer society now. It shows how easily seismic political events can occur & in that case so voting did transform this country at least.

Your reference to ‘side-burned cliches’ suggests you do not have much time for the past either.

Not at all. I would like my union to be stronger instead of helping push private healthcare onto it's members or a way to get money off at Pizza Express. I would've thought that a recent example of rubbish rotting in the streets was indicative of just how important working class people are, and how Labour are happy not only to play along with austerity but also to use scabs to break a strike. There's a lesson there.

 

[TruXta]

Until unions start becoming truly democratic again they're just another type of fat cats. Too cozy with capital to be worth the effort imo.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I'm saying that politics is far, far wider than party/electoral politics, I'm saying that the politics of working class should not be confined to who, if anyone, to vote for. And that by reducing politics to party/electoral politics you are helping capital rather than labour. Is the only choice, Labour or another party? Or going on a protest? Why are you restricting politics to these few options?

But even more than that I'm criticising you putting the (Labour) party ahead of the class. Personally I don't think it is a good use of people's time and efforts to get involved with Labour but there are people I consider comrades who have become members. The key, however, is that they recognise that the LP is only a vehicle, that the real driving force is the working class.

Yes of course the LP is the vehicle. If the w/c want change the w/c have to drive the vehicle. Which does make the w/c the driving force. At least some of your friends have realised that. So imagine it is nearly the next GE & people come to you for advice & guidance. Labour is looking good in the polls. How would you advise them to vote? Or would you advise them not to vote? What options would you offer them?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Not at all. I would like my union to be stronger instead of helping push private healthcare onto it's members or a way to get money off at Pizza Express. I would've thought that a recent example of rubbish rotting in the streets was indicative of just how important working class people are, and how Labour are happy not only to play along with austerity but also to use scabs to break a strike. There's a lesson there.

What happened in the 1970s was that the w/c did not work together towards a common aim. Separate groups worked only among themselves to further their own interests. In the ‘78/79 so called winter of discontent people, who would also have been workers did not see the rubbish in the street as their fellow w/c people being important they saw only stinking rubbish in the street & voted in the Tories.

I am certainly not anti union but I see today in very different times from 1979 that working people seem more unified & the opportunity for fundamental change is there provided people work together under the same banner which is what I have been saying all along really. Time is short & imo we can only work with what we have.

 

[seventh bullet]

I was talking about the recent refuse worker strike in Birmingham, posted about here.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Yes. I know you were. As I said though. Different times. What one can learn from the past is that if you give the opposition anything to throw back at you they will which is why the next Labour election win will need careful planning & execution ensuring nothing is said that can come back to haunt them. If you are seeking some other outcome at next GE then you may not agree.

 

[seventh bullet]

The strike against the Labour-run council.

 

[Terry Manners]

Until unions start becoming truly democratic again they're just another type of fat cats. Too cozy with capital to be worth the effort imo.

When was this mythical era of union democracy?

What do you mean by too cozy with capital? Is it the job of trade unions to fight against capitalism?

 

[SaskiaJayne]

The strike against the Labour-run council.

Yes. So change the people. Which I think what they are doing at Haringey from what I read. The PLP has certainly done that now Corbyn is in charge. Different times need different outlooks but the people must unite under something. This why I think it is better to look at specific issues that need addressing right now. Housing & benefits for example. If you do not support the LP then who do you support to bring about the change that is needed right now not sometime in the far future? It’s a genuine question for you. Growing numbers are choosing to support the LP as it is today not how it was at some point in the past in very different times.

 

[TruXta]

When was this mythical era of union democracy?

What do you mean by too cozy with capital? Is it the job of trade unions to fight against capitalism?

Yes, I think so.

 

[Rob Ray]

Different times.

Indeed, this time Labour is promising less, is in a position to deliver less still, and there's no extraparlimentary working class movement to make it do anything at all.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Is not momentum the beginnings of one?

 

[Rob Ray]

No.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Ok. What do others think & why? I only know what I have read about it.

 

[Rob Ray]

So you know how whenever Labour is in power the trade unions go mysteriously quiet about the heinous shit being done, even when it'll quite clearly fuck their own membership? That's the message discipline shown by allies of the party which don't exist solely to elect it to power, but hope to get get something out of the party being in charge.

Now apply that logic to Momentum as run by lifelong loyalist Jon Lansman.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Ok so not Momentum then? What would you suggest? Realistically the only option if Labour do not get in at next GE is Tories or some sort of coalition.

 

[Rob Ray]

Honestly? I think you need to resign yourself to one of three probabilities.

1. The right gets in
2. The left gets in followed by a massive dumping or even reversal of policies you currently think are inviolate due to the combined pressure of EU, US and international capital controls, laws and threats. Think of it as that scene in gangster movies when the mafia comes in and explains who's really in charge.
3. The left gets in and implodes.

Possibly, somewhere within 2 and 3, there may be some temporary rollback of some of the more ridiculous Tory shibboleths as long as it doesn't conflict with major Capital interests. But only possibly.

In terms of what I'd suggest, it's the same thing anarchists suggest every time people get overexcited about electing saviours. We need working class power, not powerless advocates in the living room of the ruling class. That means organised communities, organised workplaces, organised renters' unions, organised co-ops etc etc - the organs of a living culture of resistance that can underpin real, palpable influence to scare politicians straight. There's no shortcuts.