countryside riot in london!

[Streathamite]

to Gen. Ludd;
I expressed myself clumsily earlier, and got rightly criticised - I should have said 'history and tradition'. I totally agree that there have been big changes in the countryside in my lifetime, and that these traditions, lingering 'feelings' (I really can't think of a better word right now) will die/are dying. It was just something I perceived, generally in the more 'horsey' parts of the countryside.
How would you describe what, if anything, has replaced/will replace them?

 

[butchersapron]

Class hatred.

 

[General Ludd]

How would you describe what, if anything, has replaced/will replace them?

An experience much closer to that of the urban working class.

 

[Streathamite]

in what way? I'm very interested in this question, and clearly have some research to do.

 

[General Ludd]

In that older concepts such as a job for life and tied housing which persisted for much longer in rural areas have also been entirely conquered by global capital. All features, and in particular the instabilities, of modern working class life; job insecurity, house price fluctuations and so are now fully replicated in deepest Herefordshire. Until very recently despite appalling pay and working conditions housing, job stability and local shops were not issues of concern in the countryside but that is not the case now.

The left though has entirely failed to reflect this shift in experience.

 

[butchersapron]

As a first off - agricultural workers are now wage workers and face the same pressures as all other workers of that type - speed up, flexibility etc, more for less - there are local/historic differences in how this works of course...

They don't own the land that they work on, and they can't opt out of the capitalist system as everything on operates in monetary terms...

Two others...

 

[TeeJay]

I'll read no Pms by you - they'll be deleted. Don't try and start a fight and then blame someone else - we've all seen what your trick is here.

Its the old "we" again. Feeling royal are we?

 

[General Ludd]

They don't own the land that they work on, and they can't opt out of the capitalist system as everything on operates in monetary terms...

There has also been a huge reduction in council farms which from 1950-1985 provided the most common way after inheritance of farm labourers actually starting there own farm. Subsidies have put a guaranteed income upon agriculutral land so that has hugely inflated land prices so that has been put another barrier up to anyone who hasn't won the lottery getting their own (the utopian dream of most farm labourers I know). I've yet to make up my mind about the significance of this in terms of the attitude of farm labourers.

 

[TeeJay]

I doubt anyone is really interested in you.

So change the record muppet-boy.

 

[TeeJay]

So what you're saying is that you don't really have a clue.

And you can't read English?

 

[butchersapron]

Its the old "we" again. Feeling royal are we?

Feeling cuntish are we? Destroy another debate teej - go on.

 

[General Ludd]

So change the record muppet-boy.

If only I could...

 

[DaveCinzano]

agriculture is now just a division of business; the countryside is another factory, one big assembly line. jobs are deskilled, taylorised and fordified; flexibility is the keyword. if you don't like the pay or the conditions there are dozens ready - often paperless and 'illegal' - to take your place.

the production of food is now engineered to suit distribution networks, 'consumer desires', profit projections.

 

[Ace]

An anti-hunt spokesman in jubilant mood today

 

[Streathamite]

I've yet to make up my mind about the significance of this in terms of the attitude of farm labourers.

firstly, thanks to Buthchers and Gen. Ludd for their info here. now, to both-you've sketched out the impact of economic changes, and I have been made aware by others that the past 50 years, economically have been one long downward spiral for agrarian labour. In your opinion (and butchers has already hinted/stabbed at this) in what ways have the rural w/c responded to this?
btw-have to turn off U75 soon, but will catch up in the AM-anything more you can tell me is great, but I feel a bit rude asking, really. You've certainly helped get me thinking where I should start my reading on this

TeeJay -It was nice to meet you at that picnic, and as I found you're not a bad sort - I've met loads worse. drop it now eh? leave the thread or drop the handbags, mate.

 

[davgraham]

When have I claimed the CA was there for any of those things? But that list of grievances are the reason why lots of working class people are there today and even more working class people support the CA. However inadequate the CA is as an organisation to express those grievances and however inadequate fox hunting is as an issue to gather around, that is precisely what is happening.

I think General Ludd has a point . . . .

and can we please come up with a more modern term than 'toffs'? If the language being used is old fashioned and not up to the mark then very likely the ideas being expressed are the same.

gra
Gra

 

[davgraham]

Might be tricky but a load of beaters and shooters will kill more foxes in an afternoon than most hunts will in a month.

. . . then your problem becomes multiplied as neighbouring vixens invade the freshly cleared territory and within a season the problem is 4 times worse.

Any shepherd will tell you that - you want to KNOW where each vixen is and maintain the population at the lowest level that will prevent such explosions of population. Blundering around the countryside chasing any animal remotely fox like merely creates problems for those folk who actually have to look after livestock.

If they want go charge about the countryside they can drag hunting or whatever.

gra

 

[davgraham]

Maybe, but there were a number of different groups involved and this doesn't touch on the sympathy they had with the general public.

and judging by the poeple I saw outside Stanlow refinery it highly inaccurate

gra

PS this is a humourous thread which I'm enjoying even tho' I'm supposed to be working on a reply to mp3 about 'national liveration' - oh events dear boy, events!

 

[laptop]

and can we please come up with a more modern term than 'toffs'?

But isn't the definition of 'toffs' that they want now to be then, 'then' being the time when 'toff' was a term of forelock-tugging respect?

(Not that forelock-tugging was necessarily ever more than a public show by those with tied cottages - and, er, an informal nocturnal food-gathering habit...)

Shouldn't call them "rural haute bourgeousie" for example, because that'd play into their self-definition as Guardians of the Rural Wotsit - when historically (many of them) are parasites funding their house in Town off rural labour...

 

[laptop]

and can we please come up with a more modern term than 'toffs'?

But isn't the definition of 'toffs' that they want now to be then, 'then' being the time when 'toff' was a term of forelock-tugging respect?

(Not that forelock-tugging was necessarily ever more than a public show by those with tied cottages - and, er, an informal nocturnal food-gathering habit...)

Shouldn't call them "rural haute bourgeoisie" for example, because that'd play into their self-definition as Guardians of the Rural Wotsit - when historically (many of them) are parasites funding their house in Town off rural labour...

 

[where to]

oh! the poetic justice, should they have sent in the horses to chase the huntsmen out of the square!


anyway, er, why aren't the papers calling this a riot? wasn't it?

 

[80sHair Revival]

I had to giggle seeing these fox-botherers getting a bashing at the hands of the plod! I can just imagine these types sneering at leftwing and anarchist "rabble rousers" when we've received cop brutality in the past. I wonder if a few clouts around the head might be enough to knock their crap politics out of them?

I just wish it was the worker's militia dishing it out!

 

[DaveCinzano]

it seems otis ferry (son of "urbane crooner" brian, in the words of the beeb's andrew marr...) was involved

[edit]the 'igreens', from whose website the above link comes from, sound like a right bunch of nutters...

Environmentalists often ignore the way the private sector protects, and the state harms the environment. iGreens are redressing the balance
...
The poor, and those who care about the future do better to trust the market
...
Collective ownership is usually wasteful; the tragedy of the commons. Conservationists should avoid creating new commons and where possible turn natural ones such as fisheries and forests over to private ownership.*
...
If politicians refrain from interfering, the market will ensure that the eventual users make the best use of resources

maybe laptop's right to smell a big rcp/lm conspiracy

 

[Disjecta Membra]

....

 

[totaladdict]

huh?

Sorry about that before mate... I was getting a bit irked by some of the anti-rural ignorance on display, then when you said that shit about knowing ones place or whatever it was it pissed me off.

There seems to be a massive lack of understanding of rural issues on here, which isn't massively surprising considering it's mostly urban base... but is still pretty frustrating. I'm with General Ludd on the whole...

It's getting on now and I'm bloody knackered but I'll try and put together a coherent post re the rural working class some time - would also be interested in any reading butchers et al could suggest.

 

[General Ludd]

It's getting on now and I'm bloody knackered but I'll try and put together a coherent post re the rural working class some time - would also be interested in any reading butchers et al could suggest.

I'm writing a quick article now so I'll start a serious thread pretty soon.

 

[Streathamite]

good stuff - cheers chaps!

 

[Isambard]

What bollocks that people on here have no idea of rural issues!
That's SUCH a cop out argument from the right , the CA, whoever.
The minute their agenda or aguments are challenged its "Thee don't know the cundree ways boy".

That the CA never campaigned on the 101 issues affecting rural Britain: shops, buses , houses etc etc is EXACTLY my point! They've pumping up one (smallish) issue into a big hoohah about protecting rural Britain when in fact it was these "toffs" (rich ruling class bastards is a bit of a mouthful ) who stood by and cheered or at best didn't give a toss when loads of bad things happened in the country.

Wasn't there some research done that showed that rural unemployment was NOT going to be affected by a ban on fox hunting? Biggest issue on the rural employment market I see "at home" is a very high level of casual, seasonal work for low wages where the local cost of living is steadily climbing.....

 

[butchersapron]

Glad you said GL that as my posts are based on family/friend experince rather than any studies...

 

[General Ludd]

That the CA never campaigned on the 101 issues affecting rural Britain: shops, buses , houses etc etc is EXACTLY my point! They've pumping up one (smallish) issue into a big hoohah about protecting rural Britain when in fact it was these "toffs" (rich ruling class bastards is a bit of a mouthful ) who stood by and cheered or at best didn't give a toss when loads of bad things happened in the country.

Who has said that the CA has campaigned on those issues?